Replacing old windows with Flush mounted acrylic

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Smier
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Replacing old windows with Flush mounted acrylic

Post by Smier »

Image

Image

I have been doing a lot of research into replacing the windows on my boat. Leaking is a big factor in my decision making, followed by the cost of either rebuilding or replacing all 7 windows/ports on my boat. After weeks of searching and reading the positives and negatives, and weighing all the different options, I have decided that I am not going to rebuild my existing windows. They leak, the exterior frames have cracked, several of the acrylic lens have cracked, and there really isn't much left that is salvageable...

I am going to have my local glass company cut new windows out of 3/8" or 1/4" dark tinted acrylic using templates that I will will create from my original broken window frames, and have them bevel the edges for a factory look. Then I plan to mount them using only an adhesive like Dow's 795. That's right, NO SCREWS OR BOLTS!!!! It sounded crazy to me at first also, but the more I've researched, the more I like the idea!

Dow 795 Info:

http://www.dowcorning.com/applications/ ... px?r=264en

Here's a few links if you are interested in such craziness:

http://sailquest.com/ottawa/windows2.htm

http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/windows.html

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourse ... page01.htm

http://svmomo.blogspot.com/2009/12/repl ... e.html?m=1

And a video of a guy using an overpriced kit($1500), to do exactly what I am talking about:

http://youtu.be/xo43sWYo5oY

I will be getting an estimate of what it will cost to have the windows made, and if it is too high, I will just make them myself! The acrylic sheet is fairly easy to cut and bevel, and It looks like with shipping and tax, all the materials would be under $150. I think it will really update the look of the boat! The more I have researched, the more I like the idea of this. There is only one possible place for it to leak, and the reviews of the Dow 795 in this application are fairly impressive.
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astrorad
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Post by astrorad »

Smier...get a copy of the April 2013 SAIL magazine and on pages 73 and 74 Don Casey outlines step by step how to use surface mount acrylic. He recommends using 3M VHB 4991 adhesive tape for the fixative and then using the DOW 795 to fill the gap as a sealant.
I will scan it for you and send it to you via email if you can't get the magazine.
Don Casey states that this is the easiest and most modern method to use.
He does recommend that the plexi should be made at least 1 inch larger than the opening in the cabin side.
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Post by Chrysler20%26 »

Look at Macgregor sail boats, I have a 1983 an have never had a window leak.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

astrorad wrote:Smier...get a copy of the April 2013 SAIL magazine and on pages 73 and 74 Don Casey outlines step by step how to use surface mount acrylic. He recommends using 3M VHB 4991 adhesive tape for the fixative and then using the DOW 795 to fill the gap as a sealant.
I will scan it for you and send it to you via email if you can't get the magazine.
Don Casey states that this is the easiest and most modern method to use.
He does recommend that the plexi should be made at least 1 inch larger than the opening in the cabin side.

Ditto - great article on the subject
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Post by Smier »

Thanks for the info! I definitely want to check it out, because I have read that some of the boat manufacturers started using the tape method as a time saver, and also as an easy way to help ensure an adequate thickness of the adhesive... I wasn't planning on using the tape method truthfully, my time is free, and I like the idea of having a 1" solid band of adhesive around the window as a seal, but if he makes a compelling argument...

I ordered my materials this morning, with the shipping charge the Dark tinted Acrylic sheet cost $93 and the Dow Corning adhesive cost $37 shipped for 3 tubes. I decided that since I have most of the tools already, that I would just make them myself!
Last edited by Smier on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

I made EE's with a variable speed jigsaw running very slow speed and keeping the blade wet with some spray lube. That kept the material from melting or "pilling" on the edges/

Would have been better with a bandsaw since it goes one direction, but made do with what I had...
Smier
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Post by Smier »

Hmmm, I'm glad you mentioned the band saw, we have one at work!
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Anhinga
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Post by Anhinga »

For fun use bigbluesaw.com. They will laserjet or waterjet cut parts to your design. Use their online designer or use your own CAD to upload a drawing, spec your materials and pay for it. Two weeks later your parts are fedexed to you all done. I've made some aluminum parts using the service and they turned out great! I've been thinking about a new set of windows for Anhinga.
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Post by astrorad »

just a clarification...DOW 795 is not an adhesive...it is a building sealant...at least that is the way I understand it
Bill
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Post by Smier »

Smier
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Post by Smier »

Anhinga wrote:For fun use bigbluesaw.com. They will laserjet or waterjet cut parts to your design. Use their online designer or use your own CAD to upload a drawing, spec your materials and pay for it. Two weeks later your parts are fedexed to you all done. I've made some aluminum parts using the service and they turned out great! I've been thinking about a new set of windows for Anhinga.
Thanks! I will have to check this out in greater detail, but looks promising.
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Post by EmergencyExit »

That is a good look for the Starwind
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Post by Smier »

Yes, I love the dark hull color. I'd love to paint mine a really nice dark blue, but I'm too afraid that I'd scratch it...
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cutting plastics (from a professional)

Post by Dayenu »

Thought I'd share a tip on cutting plastics (of any type).

Refrain from cutting cold plastics (it's cold where we are (Oregon) and although my studio is heated, my shop isn't... Tons of tools including a large band saw... no matter how many teeth per inch, you stand a good chance of cracking/shattering the plastic when it's cold... just the nature of the beast.

If your shop is heated, great, wouldn't hurt to place the plastic to be cut near a heater vent just to warm it up a bit more (body temp is great)... If you're cutting in an un heated garage, bring in a portable heater and keep the plastic in your home until you're ready to cut...

Another trick that helps to get clean cuts, is do not remove the paper or plastic covering on the plastic... in fact, don't remove it until you are ready to install... It will protect the plastic from any scratches until you're finished working on it...

(I build prototypes and create motion picture special effects... lot o years learning how... "the hard way" ! LOL ;) if you're curious, my website is: www.jareldesign.com

Good Luck...

BEAUTIFUL green boat and lettering! (We're getting ready to rename and create graphics for our C-26... Dark burgundy color and trying to decide on font design, outline or drop shadow and colors.... Can I ask what font your registration lettering and numbers are? I wouldn't have picked it, but it just looks too fantastic to try it our on ours!... WOW!)

Best,
Richard
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Post by astrorad »

Ricky...thanks for the plastic cutting tip and your website is most interesting.
Show us pictures of your boat when you can.
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Dayenu
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plastics and composite info gladly shared!

Post by Dayenu »

:D

I've wanted to post more including the story of how we got our C-26 and tutorial info on all sorts of fabrication skills and methods... I've just been WAY to swamped with work... Hoping I'll have more time near the end of the month...

I've got info on making your own vacuum forming equipment inlcuding where to get plastic, using your kitchen oven and a shop vac to create instrument covers/housing, coming inserts, just look around and just about anything plastic on a boat was probably vacuum formed...

Another skill is vacuum bagging composites... Most people think you need pre-peg composites and an autoclave or huge vacuum tank/pump, bag etc... nope! :)

If you go to www.rcgroups.com and look up my user name (Jarel Design) then look for threads started... then look for Telos return of a legond (along with) vacuum bagging tutorial... I show (with TONS of photos!) how to create your own vacuum bagging system for $10... this INCLUDES the pump!

So what can yo do with vacuum bagging? Ever try to repair a fibergalss section that has a steep concave or convex shape? what if you could apply your composites using an epoxy (WEST Systems) with a long pot life, then cover it with a section of plastic drop cloth, spray the inside with silicone spray and/or PAM cooking oil thenu use window putty to create a seal around the epoxied area, hook up some tubes to a vacuum pump (Think $5 ~ $30 fish tank aquarium air pump but you tap into the intake tubes which then turns your cheap air pump into a cheap vacuum pump... (Granted, you may only get 5"hg to 7"hg, but it's enough to hold everything in place...

Anyway I'd love to share more on this website and will begin to soon in the General threads section (I think?)...

For now, here are some photos... Can't believe we found her in the shape we did... as near to pristine as I ahve ever seen a boat... Blister job coming this fall/next spring, but I've been there before,,, messy but actually pretty simple...

This will be my second time posting photos... TOTALLY new to photobucket... hope this works!

PS: the lady in the boat toasting with our new Stainless steel wine glasses is Tresa (Lucy... long story, her hair is kind of red, my heratige is cuban, my name is richard and used to be called Ricky... hence: ricky and lucy! LOL!

So Lucy (Tresa) came up with the idea that our first anniversary celbration dinner should be in our boat! Even though it was sitting in our driveway! Set up the table, ordered Thsi food, wine, music, kerosene lantern and a laptop for later to watch You Tube videos we've collected about San Carlos Mexico where we'll be sailing late July.... Microwave popcorn, Jummy buffet music instead of the You tube soundtracks, pillows and blankets to sleep on the boat... This was all HER idea!!!! Does she sail??? Wait until I share the story of how we met! Didn't know just how serious of a sailor she was until our second date! (We met on Match .com, lived together for 6+ years and we were married on a beach in Maui March 15, 2012... God! I get the girl AND the boat!?!?! life is wonderful! :D

Ok... sorry to write this much... just took a break from work and it just all poured out... didn't want to hijack this thread, so if you have questions please feel free to email me... from here on, let's stick with window installation!

a thought by the way... have you thought of creating flat aluminum frames for your sindows? on the outside, 1/8" thick? to serve a way to reduce any stress around any screws you might plan to use? might be overkill... was just a thought... or... maybe cut out a frame from the same plastic 1" wide... If the plastic is acrylic, you could use MEK as an adhesive... round the edges in and out before gluing then if you put in screws, the plastic will be twice as thick... (Screw points are where all stress goes to... if only glue or adhesive, this is not a problem... ) Just wondering of the adhesive you will be using is UV resistant? water resistant? any fear of them coming off during a steep broad reach?

ok... enough.. sorry for rambling...

Here are the photos (I hope!) :oops:

http://s1284.photobucket.com/user/DAYEN ... ry/?page=1

Best,
Richard
What we now have, was once, only hoped for...
Smier
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Post by Smier »

Wow, cool story, awesome woman, and an awesome looking C26! Hijack forgiven!!! Now we just have to teach to how to do this:

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Back on Topic... more info, sources and things to consider..

Post by Dayenu »

Thanks for the kind words Smier, Yeah, I LOVE that lady.... another story I'll post in "General" is how I discovered she was a serious (charter boat) sailor!

Back on topic.... :oops:

I have a few questions, info and thoughts to consider...

Have you already purchased your plasitc?

Lexan (Polycarbonate), is WAY, WAY, WAY stronger than acrylic (Plexiglass)... Polycarbonate is less prone to shattering (they use it for "bullet-proof" glass in banks! It's also less prone to scratching... (They use this stuff for perscription glasses ) Both are also avaialbe for outdoor use as UV resistant)...

UV resistant will hold up a lot better in our enviroments... I know Acrylic is avaiable is "smoke" translucant color, I'm not sure about Lexan.

a great source (not sure where you live, but even after moving from Los Angeles to Oregon, I still use these people: Industrial Plastic Supply, Anaheim, California (www.iplasticsupply.com) (714) 978-2812 ( have no affiliation with them and have used othe su0ppliers.. I just like these people best and they've been great guiding me to the right plastic for the job...

Both Lexan and Acrilic are temperature sensative (cut, drill etc in warmer temps) Speaking of drilling, there are specific drills designed for plastic... (it's the angle of the bevel in the tip) I don't always use them but sure put out a lot of colorful language when I "suddenly" realized I should have! LOL!

That's about all I can think of regarding the specifics to your project... If you're using screws and your plastic is thick enough, you might want to consider "oval head" screws... they're countersunk and provide a "shallower dome" at the surface than normal machine/pan head screws... les chance of snagging lines, clothing etc...

Ok... that's all for now... got a lot done in the studio and I've got dinner on its way (Tresa's on her way home from teaching a master gardener's classs... besieds sailing, gardening is her bliss/joy...

Looking forward to seeing what you do!

Best,
Richard
What we now have, was once, only hoped for...
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Post by monty »

Here's the link to the vacuum bagging post in rcgroups:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=966524

I like your idea of using an aluminum frame around the portlight. It's got me thinking about changing my approach to re-doing mine. I want to use clear Lexan for better light transmission but need to hide the butyl. I did one light using the old frame and am not happy with the results, too many opportunities for leakage!! If it ever stops snowing here I'll be taking a look at another approach, thanks.

Haven't read the bagging post yet but I look forward to the day when I finally try some bagging, so it's on my list to read. Would a refrigerator compressor work as a vacuum source? They're certainly available at a good price ($0)!!!

Beautiful boat! Is that 'Courser' etched into the mirror? COOL!
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Refridgerator Compressors: YES! aluminum vs plastic frames

Post by Dayenu »

:D

You hit a bullseye! I didn't mention them because I thought it might be out of range of understanding for most... a riminder for me to tell the whole story and not edit it...

Yes, almost all refridgerators (no matter how large or small), contain a self contained, (Oil emmerssed) vacuum pump... Most discarded refridgerators are discarded because the freon leaked out and they no longer cool... do be advized that if the freon is not out of the system, you will be contributing to green hose warming)... also, if you find a discoarded refridegerator is some alley, vacant lot etc.... after you get what you want, please remove the doors... (it used to just be in old mechanical locking refridgerators, but they do pose a safety hazard to small children climbing in and being locked in (the refridgerator could fall over on the door with the child in it...

Refridgerator pumps are the BEST for vaccum bagging... low volume, high pressures.... once the air is evacuated out of the area you are vacuum bagging, it only needs to run to keep the pressure up... Grangers and other supply houses sell vacuum pump regulators... but a small (cheap) vacuum gauge and a regulator and you will have complete control... 30"hg is considered a "perfect", complete vacuum for our purposes... I usually work around 25" to 27" for composites depending on what I am fiberglassing... (foam sub structures get less so the foam doesn't get crushed...

I'll stop here because again, I'm afraid of derailing this thread...
If anyone wants to start a vacuum baggin thread and there's a few people that want to post that they're interested in learning I'd be happy to contribute on a regular basis... with photos (I've already taken.... uploading the photos and posting every once in a while should be able to fit my schedule... at the least, I'll try and post a direct link to the very long and very thorough tutorial thread on the RC modelers website (Why there? because I also design and manufacture RC aircraft including surveilance/photo UAVs... www.jarelaircraftdesign.com) just send me a PM letting me know that a thread was started.

Regarding the exterior aluminum frames for your plastic windows... I'm now wondering if gluing on a frame of the same plastic as the window might be a better idea... reason: If the aluminum does not like to be glued to, screws might cause the space in between screws to lift, that would not only look ugly, but contribute to getting caught on stuff and eliminating the original reason for the frame... extra strength... if a plastic frame were chemically glued (Think chemical welding with MEK), it would truly increase the overall strength of the window... (If you wanted the frame a differenct color, you could by a different colored plastic (silver? Black?) and it could still be chemically glued to the window...

Richard
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not enough coffee

Post by Dayenu »

Monty!

I JUST this moment realized that you found and posted the vacuum baggin thread link!

THANK YOU! (I am often so "computer illiterate" and.... often read to fast without enough coffee, responding to posts without all the inof...)

Thanks for posting this...

I will go to the general discussins forum and start a vacuum baggin threead for those interested so we can focus here on window replacement!

Thanks!

Richard
What we now have, was once, only hoped for...
monty
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Post by monty »

Yeah, make the frame of coloured Lexan - even better! Great idea, I've been putting off doing any more portlights because of the questionable results of the first one! Thanks again!

I posted the link because I didn't want to register. I just searched your topic subject including the website and Google took me right to your post so I copied the link, and - presto - no registration req'd.
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Vaccum Bagging Thread Started

Post by Dayenu »

Just wanted to apologize to Smire and others about th side tracking,,, Not intentional... I work alone at home and don't often get out to converse with people so writing is one of my outlets...

I started a vacuum bagging and "other skill sets" thread in the General Discussion forum, so if you have any questions about "stuff" not pertaining to replacing windows, please feel free... This way others and I can focus on the topic at hand...

I'll stay subscribed if there's anything you think I can help with, questions answered, trouble shoot etc....

As for adhesives.... I never consider myself an expert as formulas are always changing and new sealants and adhesives are modified, formulated,produced all the time... best suggestion, follow advice already offered here and search the manufacture's website for detailed info... Don't heistate to contact the manufactures with your specific project... They are often way more than willing to help because if you are successful and they have helped, you will pass that info on and that kind of advertizing is priceless...

Ok... back to work here.... :roll:

Best,
Richard
What we now have, was once, only hoped for...
Smier
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Post by Smier »

I finally got started on making my windows! First, I pulled the interior trim to make a template:

Image

Then transferred it to some cheap plexiglass I picked up cheap at Home Depot:

Image

I cut everything on my new toy:

Image

Using the scroll saw is an art in itself, especially when cutting on an angle to bevel the edges. It has a variable speed for the blade. Turn the speed up too fast and the acrylic melts back together as the blade passes thru... I'm starting to get the hang of it...

I'm over sizing the new windows to allow for a proper contact area for the adhesive to bond to the hull with substantial strength. The bottow picture is a shot to show the old window size versus the new for comparison:

Image

Image

I have some rough spots to clean up on the first window, but it came out pretty nice. The nice part is, I'm getting the hang of it quickly. The thicker the material, the harder it was to cut on the scroll saw with a professional edge. I'm using a blade specifically for cutting plastic with a high number of teeth per inch of the blade. More to follow, hopefully soon!
Last edited by Smier on Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Smier »

I'm really excited about this job, I think it will not only seal up the leaks, but will really update the look of the boat!
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Post by EmergencyExit »

Sweet ! Can't wait to see results
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Post by EZFEED »

I have a question for you guys....

Has anyone thought of using safety glass instead of plexi????
I've been thinking of using some blue tinted safety glass to replace my windows.
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Post by NYCSAILOR »

I did this to my C-26... the cosmetic result is stunning... makes the boat look modern and many people at the dock think she is a new boat ( if they only knew!)

I did all the windows and only one has a very small drip that I am looking at this thread to fine the best way to seal up that one window for good.... they overlay on the exterior trunk and I reused the interior frame for cosmetic reason inside. CAUTION.... be sure and epoxy seal the , now, open exposed, edges of the window sill since any water that may come in may get into the core... this is A LOT OF WORK and if you seal the windows good enough.. may not be necessary.

I will check out these sealants and this winter may redo a few windows using these methods..
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Post by Smier »

It's been a while since I updated. I have been working on the boat, but a back injury really slowed progress to a crawl for a while, plus I've been spending nice days sailing my Compac 16! I had a new set of stainless steel keel pin brackets and pin made that are currently waiting to get installed, but that's for another thread at another time...

So I installed my first experimental window a few weeks ago, installation was much easier than removing the old window and prepping the opening. I fought with the old window and frames, and ended up breaking them while trying to remove them. No loss, they were shot and cracked anyway. Thankfully, I was able to remove everything without damaging the fiberglass or gelcoat! After removing everything, I wiped the opening with some acetone, then sanded the mounting surface of the deck lightly, wiped with acetone again, and let it air dry for a bit more. This left me with this:

Image

I then measured and marked exactly where I wanted the new window to mount. I taped the window in place, went inside the cabin and traced the opening on the protective film/paper covering the new window. Next, I lightly scored the paper, careful not o scratch the new window and peeled the outer ring away to allow an application of the Dow 796 adhesive to be applied to the window. I also taped off the exterior of the window openings on the exterior to help cleanup any adhesive that oozed out during the mounting process.

Image

I carefully applied a thin layer of the Dow 795(using a plastic putty knife to smooth it out into an even coating to reduce the chance of air bubbles between the window and the fiberglass) to the new window mounting face, as well as the window opening lip on the boat. I used some screws, run in thru the existing holes in the fiberglass from the inside, to insure a depth of 1/16th of an inch when I mounted the windows. This worked perfectly. I had a nice smooth layer and was able to clean up the extra adhesive with my latex gloves. I was able to get a nice clean bead on the inside, not so nice around the exterior of the window on the outside. I need to do a better job finishing the edges of the windows, but the test window and installation went perfectly. I'm not sure how I'll get it off to make a perfect one, because it is on there like you wouldn't believe!!! I'm half afraid I'll damage the gelcoat and fiberglass when I have to remove it. I still need to do some finish work around the window, but that will come later, and I plan on painting the entire deck before we launch this coming spring. I really love the looks of the larger more modern window compared to my originals! Here's a few quick cellphone picks. So far, NO LEAKS, and I don't think leaking will be an issue for a very long time! Here's some more pics as promised:

Image

Image

Image

As you can see, my experimental window needs some improvement in the finishing department. I also have some excess Dow 795 that makes the window look unevenly shaped in the lousy photos I took, but you get an idea of what the finished product will be. I may tweak the window shapes a bit also, but I really like the way it's starting to turn out. I have also debated enlarging the actual window openings slightly, but I am fearful of weakening the structure if the deck. It would really open the cabin up a bit! The windows look clear from the inside, and provides almost total privacy from the exterior. I probably won't worry about having any curtains when I'm finished. After the window had been allowed to setup for a few hours, I went back inside and simply peeled the paper off the interior of the window. It made a really nice looking finished look to the bead of sealant on the interior. I will probably make some new trim pieces for the interior around the window openings. Oh, I also removed the screws before the Dow 795 had fully setup.

Things I will do differently:
1. I won't bevel my window edges, because it is too hard to get a perfect edge. I'm just going to use a straight, perpendicular cut because I think it will look perfectly fine.
2. I won't try and run a bead around the exterior of the windows again, as you can see in the pictures, even on the nice straight edges, it makes the windows look wavy...
3. Cut the acrylic slightly larger than your pattern, then use an electric sander to finish the edges, you get a much nicer, professional look.
4. The scroll saw works great, but is hard to control with thicker material, the blade wants to flex and twist. Practice, practice, practice!
5. Do a better job taping off the exterior around the window, I will actually trim the tape with a razor knife after tracing the window onto the tape outline. It will save me a lot of cleanup work, and look much more professional. I'm really disappointed in how sloppy my trial window came out.
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