Wiring

[mariner]

Just a quick question to everyone who has rewired their masts, did you use single wires and just grouped/taped them together or did you use mast cable where all 4 or 5 wires are grouped together in one cable ? is there an advantage or disadvantage to either of these? I need to buy wire and am leaning toward the mast cable... not sure though. any insight would be appreciated. thanks.

[EmergencyExit]

EE has individual wire pairs. Multi wire cables are really handy for me when everything is going to the same end point, but when you have (for instance) to peel out a couple wires at the spreader lights, then a couple more at the masthead light then a couple more at the anchor light it seems more trouble than its worth. Just me, mind you, and it may be an old dinosaur habit from running single wire pairs when wiring up radio station studios, lol..

[mcrandall]

Lyle recommended 16-4 SJ cable, if I recall. I couldn't find just that, so I'm going with 14-4 SJ. Pretty stout for the current it'll carry, but, it's readily available.

SJ is basically power tool cord material. Black rubber housing, nice and flexible, and water proof (assuming the terminations are done right.) Also, learned that it meets specs for new boats.

I'm going to run one length to the top of the mast and pigtail it out for the anchor light, steamer and deck light. Fourth line will be the common ground. Might run a second length of cable up to the spreaders for future spreader lights while I'm in there. Really only need one pair up to that point (actually, only one wire, if I tap into the common ground!) Have a 6-pin socket and plug (trailor-type) ready to go in, an idea I happily learned from Tom on Copacetic-Thanks Tom! I have an idea on how to get the six wires from mast to plug while remaining water-tight. Will show that if it works out!

[Alanhod]

Hi Mariner,

I went out to buy the 16-4 SJ cable and only found 18-5 and 18-7 cable. I can't say I looked too hard ether. The previous owner and purchased all the wire needed to re-ware the boat and the new electrical panel. I re-wired the rest of the boat back in 2008 before I took the boat out a second time in January 2009 with the exception of the mast.

I used the 16-2 wire that was all new and coiled up under the cabin seat ready to use. My mast started out with the OEM 2 wires 16 gauge for the Steamer light and one thin nasty coax which I'm 100% sure was added after purchase of the boat from the dealer.

I added in 3 sets of 16-2 wires. I used 2 wires for the anchor light and 2 wired for the steamer light and an extra yet to be used 2 wire set for something yet to be decided on for a future date. I also left a nylon line tied off at the top and bottom of the mast (inside the mast) should I need to run something else in the future beyond my current extra wire set.

The 18-5 and 18-7 wire bundles looked like telephone wire which was a bit thin and it was solid core wire too not woven like my 16-2. I figured the solid core would be harder to thread through the mast without removing the top of the mast which I did not need to do with my single line 2 wire setup. I also liked the thicker insulated coating on the 16-2 wire.

The thing I did like about the 18-5 and 18-7 wire was that each wire was color coded, red, blue, green, etc. and all were wrapped in another grey sleeve, but still a lesser insulation thickness than what I did use.

Also another hint. Thread your wire from the bottom to the top of the mast. This way you can add the zip ties every few feet right through the bottom boot area of the mast and then fish the wire out the small hole in the mast where the electrical pigtail comes out.

This is the bigger hole I'm talking about at the bottom of the mast. Much easier to pull stuff through here than the smaller wire holes.


Here are the wires after I fished them through the holes after I'd run the wires up through the mast.


The holes at the top of the mast were even smaller then the ones that were already drilled at the bottom of the mast when I bought the boat.


I also took, as you can see, a boat load of digital photo's because I figure some day I will need to go back in and change or fix something. This way I have a visual record for pending senior moment and it made it easier to share with everyone here what I had done before they attempted it themselves. And also others could advise me along the way which was very helpful indeed. I would have gotten the top top off of the mast if I had to drill those screws out. VERY happy someone here stopped me from doing that costly un-necessary error. Who knows what further damage I would have caused wallet and my poor boats mast.

Thanks
Alan

[mariner]

Am I missing something here? Everything I have preveously seen talks about making sure you use marine stranded, tinned wire? Is the 16-4SJ cable tinned? If not what is the drawback?

[Alanhod]

Ah your out of my depth here Mariner... My pool is the shallow end on wiring stuff. I'm more like, "lets try this" and so far it has worked.

"marine stranded, tinned wire? Is the 16-4SJ cable tinned?"

Not a clue, sorry.

Now that you bring it up I hope the wire the PO had on board, that he had purchased for the rewire is going to be okay. It's the wire I used to re-wire the whole boat inside and out back in 2008. I re-inspected 100% of all this wire again this winter and it was all, like new condition still. I even opened up some of the insulation at my solder joints and all was clean and shiny. Then I sealed them all up again hoping not to need to look at them for another 10 years or so.

I solder every connection, no wire connectors. Except at the electrical panel, I do connectors at the ends of the wire at the panel only and then slip those female connectors on the individual male circuits/switches. Then I wrap each solder joint in black electrical tape, then heat shrink tubing over that and the wire. Then zip tie the wires into bundles then run them back to the panel where I do a wire stop so they cannot be pulled out of the panel.

Thanks
Alan

I never did find 16-4SJ and I can only guess what you mean by "tinned" as meaning solder coated woven strand?

Thanks
Alan

[lecker68]

SJ cable has a heavy rubber jacket like an heavy extension cord so if you are going to peel a wire out you need to cut the rubber jacket enough to peel enough wire out for your connection.

[Alanhod]

Yea, that sounds a lot like the wire I used. The insulation was very thick like light weight extension cord. Not like the big thick extension cord I use to keep the atmosphere dryer going on the boat when it sits on shore.

New wire is in my hand on the left. Old wire is on the right hand side.


Thanks
Alan

[mcrandall]

[mariner]

After further research I found this thread...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14 ... 15835.html

I'm going to use tinned wire, I found a source for mast cable that is not any more expensive than other wire I have seen. (ok maybe a few bucks but the cost is negligible)

[hp18carr]

I for one not knowing one end of a wire from another would like to know if anyone has an opinion on a ready made wiring harness system. Are they worth the money and can they be adapted to our old Chrysler's?

http://www.ezacdc.com/Scripts/choose-harness-type.asp

Terrence
Wilmington N.C.
Chrysler 16' 1980
Pandora (for now)

[mariner]

Does anyone know are there any differences in wire terminals? Harbor freight has kits that have a Tom
N of terminal for not a lot of money, on the other hand west marine has individually packaged terminals that add up to a lot more... So in reality what are the differences? Are there any or is it all bs to some degree?

[CaptainScott]

Does anyone know are there any differences in wire terminals? Harbor freight has kits that have a Tom
N of terminal for not a lot of money, on the other hand west marine has individually packaged terminals that add up to a lot more... So in reality what are the differences? Are there any or is it all bs to some degree?

It is all BS to some degree.

However . . . . . .

( you knew there was more . . . .)

The crimping tool and how you use the tool can make all the difference in the world!! I can not say enough about what I will share. You can save your self some very serious grief by listening to what I say or . . . Not. Your call.


I'll preface what I'm saying with a little know fact. In my youger days, I used to install car stereos and car phones in very high end cars. I know all about good crimp connections and bad ones.



OK, lets say you go to Schucks or Sears or wherever and by a kit with a tone of connectors. Butt connectors, bullet connectors, barrel connectors, spade connectors and of course, it came with crimpers. You know the set. We've all owned probably 2 or three of those sets. The very first and very best thing you can do with this set is open it up immediatly. Get the crimpers that came with it and immediately destroy them. Then, throw them away. Seriosuly, NEVER use these cheesy crimpers!! NEVER!

Yeah, I know. there are a lot of you rolling your eyes. thinking, I've used them for years! Never had a problem! Fine! Stop reading right now and enjoy your work. I have no heartburn with your choice. However, do not come to me with your wiring problems.


Ok, still reading? Then just mabye you have experienced the car stereo that cuts in and out. Speakers that go off and on, etc etc. Let me try and explain a couple of critical things most NON wiring do-it-yourselfers don't know.

Get a set of those cheesy crimpers and look at them. CAREFULLY. Look at the part that does the actual crimp. Look carefully. It has two very basic problems. First they are always to narrow. IE when you crimp the crimp itself is SO narrow it can and will weeken the wire. Yup! Great crimp but three weeks later the wire breaks! WTF you say to yourself so you put in wire ties for strain relief and yet you still have issues! Well, that is one
reason. So what do you do? Double crimp! YEah! NOT! same problem.


PLEASE HUMOR ME. Get your current crimpers. A piece of wire. and a connector. Crimp the connector to the wire and safe this. I want you to look at your crimp you just made but not until you have finished reading and doing my suggestions.


OK, the second issue with these cheasy crimpers and by far more important than the first and I REALLLLLLLLLLY hope at least just one of you try this and report me right or wrong. This is a two stepper to do it correctly but it is SOOOOOOO easy and no lay person know it! I did not know it until I was tought. Seriously follow this and if you are confused and have questions I will take your call and describe it personally to you so you get it right every time.


Back to your crimpers. get them and look again at the actual crimp part.
You will see the crimp is shaped like this -->> () <<-- you strip the wire, shove it in the hole, and crimp! Yeah! now grab the connector in one hand and the wire in the other and give a nice firm tug. You'll likely pull the connector right off! NICE CRIMP. Can you visualize that! seriousl, go get your crimpers and look. Now do a crimp link you normally do and I bet you get a 25% or worse failur rate. Good luck.


Now go buy GOOD crimpers and use them properly . . . . .
( yes there is more . . .. )

What are good crimpers? Well the very first issue raised: A nice wide crimping surface. This takes more strength to get a good crimp however decent crimpers are built much more solidly with slightly longer handles. Yeah! Better leverage and less strength required! Next item in good crimpers. They offer better than the simple "half moon " crimpers. a crimp that looks like a half moon on one side and a v on the other side and crimps like this --> (< <<--. Yeah, a minor but critical difference than the two half moons that are like this --> () <--


Ok, now you spent 30 bucks on a GOOD set of crimpers lets for the very first time in your life use them properly and this is where it is hard to describe a very simple concept. AGAIN, this minor concept is critical for a proper crimp that will last years. This is the difference between a job and a job done well.

Get one of your crimp connectors. Put on your reading glasses. Look straight down the barrel in the hole of the connector where you are shoving the wire. Look very carefully. You will see the barrel of the connector is made of probably aluminum and is like a cylinder however the cylinder is not a closed loop. It is more the shape of the letter C that was closed so tightly it looks like the letter O. There is a seam.

OK put the connector in your crimp tool and hold it firm enought to hold but not crimp. Now rotate the connector so the seam of the connector is centered on the "half Moon" part of the crimp tool. The "v" part of the crimp tool will be centered on the "NONE" seam section of the connector.

Now put a wire in and crimp it firmly. Go back and look at the crimp itself. It should be nice and clean with a very nice wrap around the wire! For giggles take a second connector and intentionally rotate it the other way and crimp. Look again and the bad crimp! You should see a dramatically UGLIER crimp! The second will not hold as well as the first.


Yep! It is that simple!


Heh heh! Now go look at that crimp you made at the beginning! You just might get a big surprise when you see what you've been doing all this time!


If you have further questions, seriousl feel free to call me. I will happily detail further any aspects of this.

FYI I use Klien Crimpers
I have no interest in the company other than I use no other crimpers than these. All other crimpers that come into my garage get either thrown away immediately or they are not allowed in. This includes two weeks ago when my son came over so we could replace the struts in his WRX. I found his cheesy crimpers in his back seat. I threw them away and gave him one of my Kliens.
http://www.service.kleintools.com/Tool/ ... CRCTNINSIN

I beleive Sears sells Kliens now.

Scott

[mariner]

Can you post a pic of a good crimp? Thanks for the insight!

[CaptainScott]

Can you post a pic of a good crimp? Thanks for the insight!

I'll see what I can do, Destiny gets priority this weekend so it may take a few days!!

Scott

[mariner]

Thank you! Unfortunately my garden and the attic build out get priority, The Annemarie will be gently weeping.....

[mcrandall]

Great post, Scott! Thanks for the lesson!

[lecker68]

On the same note Scott is 100% right but I take it one step farther if the joint is not accessable like in a mast or along the frame of a car I will take the time and solder and shrink tube the joint.

[Paul]

And about that heat shrink (while we're on the wiring thread). Just what do you use to shrink it? I've never liked the result I get putting the soldering gun to it. And about the Klien's I'm with Scott. There's a world of difference. I not only get a better crimp but in my applications I use fully insulated terminals (110 V 7 amp motors) and the cheap crimpers are just as likely to break the insulating sheath as not.

[CaptainScott]

For heat shrink applications I use a heat gun similar to a hair drier but capable of heat hot enough to light my buddies cigarattes. ( I don't smoke )

It also was good for RC plane mono-coat coatings, removing old finishes, etc.

Scott

[lecker68]

I use a heat gun and you would be surprised at what shrink tube can do I also have heat shrink tape.

[Andiron120]

I used single and double wires, wire tied them together and didn't trim the tails which keeps the wires from slapping.

[clair hofmann]

I have a pair of T&B crimpers identical to the Kliens shown on the link. They are indeed better than the ones included in the multi piece kiys.

I use crimp and seal terminals. they have a ball of solder in the terminal. You first crimp, than heat with a heat gun and the solder flows into the wire.

The heat shrink is always a good idea. I also use this procedure on trailer wiring.
Clair