Snow chains on a trailer? Towing a C-26 at load limit... THo

[Dayenu]

Hi all,

Well, Dayenu has been put to bed, cleaned and covered... a list of modifications and things to do now span the marker boards of the shop with a dream/planning chart of the San Juans and the southern Canadian gulf islands...

Tresa and I can't wait that long though... Originally from LA (Marina Del Rey), were looking at a two week trip there during Tresa's Spring break from the school district. Lots of friends, offerings for slip at yacht clubs and the county transient docks, visiting friends and having clients come for day sails and a trip to Catalina Island...

No snow here yet, but temperatures have dropped and the gardens are showing the time of year...

My question is:

I'm anticipating snow on the Sisqiu Pass and the grapevine... Should I purchase snow chains for our trailer? one axle has brakes, the other doesn't. Would I purchase chains for both axles or just the one with brakes?

Looking at alternate routes to avoid these passes... looks like Hwy 46 (47?) will take us west to 101 just north of the grapevine, but the Sisqiu pass (less than 30 miles north of us at the California/Oregon border) may be unavoidable learning about a much complained about steep grade just south of Crescent City in CA... (Anyone have any experience with this grade?

I'd like to buy a bigger truck, but after this summer's trip up to the mountains to reach Howard Prairie lake, I'm much more confident with our 1998 Silverado 1500 (1/2ton) Chevy pick up. It's the Z-71 4x4 with a 5.7 liter engine and tow package... New brakes all around with a transmission flush... The tow rating for the truck is 6,500 lbs. (I haven't weighed the boat and trailer together, but conservatively (leaning towards a heavier guesstimate, I'd guess the trailer and boat weigh between 6,500 and 7,000 lbs). We towed Dayenu dry and had no problems on the steep grades holding 45mph... Only time we drove slower, was after pulling over in the turn outs to let others by... driving up hill after a stop took a while to get back up to speed. The combined rig felt very solid, never felt like the boat/trailer "pushed" us around.

Before this summer's trip, I had never towed this kind of weight (When we purchase Dayenu, my truck needed brakes so we rented a 3/4 ton Diesel P/U and I had to look behind us to make sure our boat was still there... couldn't feel a thing!

Before the lake trip (using our 1/2 ton), it wasn't the power driving up hill I was concerned about. (Turned out we seemed to have plenty of power going uphill), but rather slowing down during downhill driving on grades and the possibility of being "pushed around" by the weight of our boat and trailer... Hardly ever used the brakes, using lower gears (usually 3rd but sometimes 2nd) to keep speed down. I was on pins and needles before the trip (Ex-firefighter and a safety freak), but after the trip, I feel much more confident with our existing truck...

I have my eyes on a later model Chevy 2500 HD (3/4 ton, heavy duty) with possibly of upping to a 6.0 diesel engine just for the torque... but that may have to wait a while for some more prototype jobs and cash flow... We really want to go south to LA next spring!

Any thoughts, experience regarding chains for a trailer and using my existing truck?

Thanks as always.

PS: I've done TONS and TONS of research on the internet... Chevy trucks, towing.... I've read tons of claims by owners of my same truck claiming to tow up to 10,000 lbs... but claiming to "get away with it" and being prudently safe are two different things... My local Chevy dealer (off the record) shared that there is safety margin in the specs of 1,000lbs more towing capacity, but that the 6,500lb rating is anticipating litigation should an accident occur (We do this all the time with prototyping new products... Test to failure then back off a lot on the specs. We seem to be caught right on the edge with our tow rating and actual weight of our rig...

Help us Obiwon Kinobe.... You are our only hope!' LOL! =D

Richard & Tresa

[CaptainScott]

Good lord!
Why would you?

LOL!
Yeah, I know, I've been caught in the snow on my Harley a few times.
It just happens.

OK, I've never towed in snow but here is my take. Some states require chains on trailers when the "chains required" is in effect. Given that, I'd put chains on the axle with brakes. Also check the braking. Lower the voltage if you have electric brakes! I can imagine eBrakes locking up quickly if adjusted to dry pavement. Also, I think I'd pull over and wait it out until the plows and sand/salt comes along if I were on a pass. IF your truck is at its limits tow on dry pavement and now you want to add snow . . . . . .Do you have 4x4? On a pass I bet you'd need it.

If you are coming North, how about taking 101? Beautiful sites, slow driving, but not likely snow on most days!

Maybe someone with real world experience can chime in here!
Scott

[Dayenu]

Laughing here:

"Why would you!?!?"

To get away from the snow! LOL! I'm always pointout to Tresa (an Oregon native") that Oregon does not have "the trees of my people" (Palm trees!) Father was Cuban, my childhood was spent in the Florida Keyes and I lived in southern CA up until 13 years ago! (Still laughing!)

Chains on trailer axel with brakes makes sense.. if "some states" require it, I'm sure it's for a reason and I'd rather side on caution rather than not...

Our truck is a 4x4... The brakes on our trailer are surge rather than electric... I really feel good when I feel them kick in... like an angel looking down on us and taking good care... I don't know how to adjust surge brakes (I could always visit a local RV/trailer repair place... ) right now, on dry pavement, they kick in right as I begin to brake the truck and I can feel the need to press the brake pedal less as the trailer seems to hold us back (a comforting; reasuring thing, at least for one who has little experience with surge brakes)...

I'm thinking for safety's sake, chains on both truck axles (4-wheel drive) then chains on the braking axle on the trailer....

Thanks Captain Scott!

PS: Heading SOUTH from 30 miles north of the Oregon border, 101 would be my first choice... GETTING THERE from where we are here is the million dollar question... I've researched and discovered a route from I-5 Southbound that will take us to 101 (two steep grades, but closer to the coast and lower elevations), but avoiding the Sisqiu pass at the border looks like we would drive through Crescent city with a lot of comments on a lot of websites about a VERY STEEP grade just south of there... Otherwise, 101 would definitely be our #1 choice...

I'm probably being paranoid (rather that than fool hardy), but I'm thinking about driving up the pass just to see how she handles before the snow comes in... Heading up and driving down....

Richard

[Dayenu]

PS:

The alternate route I discovered and was highly suggested on several website searches for larger motor homes towing vehicles etc, was for avoiding the VERY STEEP climb up the grapevine along I-5 in southern CA... It would take us to the coast around Santa maria just north of Santa Barbera... Two steep grades along that route....

During my search I discovered two books (East and West editions), outlining steep grades and passes with alternate routes designed for truckers and motor home/RV towing rigs... I seem to recall the price was under $20 for each... I bookmarked the website but don't remember the name off hand... I'll look it up and post it here in case others might be interested. (The sample pages looked very imformative!)

Avoiding the pass here at the Oregon Border is my number one challenge... I don't mind driving a longer way around to avoid it, just want to avoid steep grades... even on winding multi turn roads, I have no problem driving slow...

[CaptainScott]

AWE,
I thought you were coming up to the Seattle area! That'll teach me to pay attention! I thought you were in California, not Oregon! Hmm, wonder how I did that! Can't you just get in your boat and slide down Shasta??

ON the other hand, sailing IN snow is kind of interesting! We got caught in a storm one year!
Here is the link:
viewtopic.php?t=2344&highlight=edmonds

Snow did not last long but we did end up in white out conditions and had to use radar to stay off shore and avoid other boats! LOL!

My wife got seasick at the dock on that trip! Is was really rough!
Scott

[Dayenu]

WOW!

Some photos!

I don't like snow on the ground let alone on my boat on the water!!!! =O

Pretty impressive...

Funny too because Tresa loves the snow.. She used to be a ski instructor in COlorado and here in Oregon... Still, we both have a thing fo palm trees and tourqoise water! Mmmmmm... Oh and did I fail to mention I built an over powered 12 volt blender using an aircraft wtarter motor? "I made a special name plate for it with only one switch...

It reads: OFF... and "Snow"! Blnded margaritas in less than 30 seconds! (Don't ask about the amperage... I burnt out a 20 amp fuse on our shake down cruise... Need to connect directly to the battery!

Still laughing here because at one point, the lid came off... Margaritas for everyone and everything! LOL!

Oh well... back to work here.... I check my emails many times a day as it's where I connect with my clients... photo updates, questions, answers... new jobs...

We WILL be coming up your way around the end of June though! We'd LOVE to meet you and share boat tours!

Richard

[OutnBacker]

I drive an 18 wheeler for a living here in Washington State. Every day I go over the Cascades to Moses Lake and then back to Everett. In winter, that means snow - almost everyday. I also have pulled many different boats over the decades, some heavy, some light. This is what I know:

A 1/2 ton pickup has all the power you need, but usually not the brakes. I don't care if they are new - doesn't matter. Get the HD 2500 yesterday. The Isuzu WunderMoto is a great engine, and has the Germans scratching their heads, but with thje price of fuel, the Vortec gas engines are very good alternatives these days. And, they have plenty of power.

You don't absolutely need a 4X, but if you have the bling, get it. But trust me, I've passed many a moron in the ditch spinning all four in futile desperation. Modern vehicles do so much of the thinking for us that we have become poor drivers, I'm afraid. Instead of worrying about an occasional snow shower over the occasional mountain pass, consider the 4X as an advantage at those slippery boat ramps. That's where it'll shine. I use a little '96 Jeep Cherokee for my C-22, which outweighs the Jeep 2800 to nearly 4000 with trailer. The excellent Command Trac 4X is a real goat, and in low range simply walks up the ramp with no throttle at all. But, talk about small brakes.

Chains: Obviously, chains work. With a 4X, the "Chains Required" stipulate that you don't need them, but I recommend a drag chain on the "curb" side trailer tire, brake wheel. Thats the one that really matters because it takes most of the weight, being on the fall-away side of the lane. The other side is an option, but one will usually do the job. It helps to prevent unpleasantries such as whiplash or jack-knifing when you have to brake.

Finally, the Siskiyou's: The many times I've trucked down there have been quite nice - even in winter. I never had to chain up. Maybe I got lucky. Maybe I'm a good truck driver, I don't know. Others were throwing iron at various times. Few cars had to. That pass is much the same as those up here in Washington - wet snow, moderate temps that make it slick (read: not quite freezing), and pretty good snow control by the authorities. It's an easy option to just wait it out til they de-ice and get things sorted out.

Relax. It's one of the most beautiful drives in the nation.

EDIT: Just a note on the northern california winter drive. Basically, there is little difference between conditions going from the Oregon border on south to around Weed and Shasta. It can be all snow and slush the whole way. In my experience, I have seen more people lose it on the flatter sections due to over confidence, than on the steeper grades.

John

[Dayenu]

John,

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!!!!!!

Considering your background and expertise I take your words VERY seriously and totally making sense...

Question:

When I had my brakes replaced, I was told that my rear drum brakes were larger than normal (Heavy duty?)... I don't have the cash for the 2500 truck, don't want to be stupid... but... Having these larger rear brakes, would this help safety-wise for a spring trip using my existing truck?

I'm an extremely defensive driver... (Ex-firefighter in Malibu CA usually first response via helicopter and have rescued on many "car over the side" calls... more sad images in my brain than I'd care to remember... I drive VERY slow when it comes to hills, grades etc... towing a boat, even more so... I can't ask you for your blessings after your WONDERFUL sharing of information, but I would like your opinion as to whether I'd be crazy to do this trip?

If I had the cash, I'd by the truck in a heartbeat. (depending on projects I receive this winter, it could be a possibility) and Tresa and I are so devoted to our dreams of traveling with the boat, that I'd even get a partial loan to do so...

I know what I'm hoping to hear but also will take to heart any more you could share...

Again, Thank you so very much! I fully appreciate where you're coming from and value your expertise...

Best to you,

Richard

[Dayenu]

John,

Just re-read your post and still appreciate it immensely!

My driving style is great! My history with the fire department has changed the way I drive for over 30 years... I "see" a block ahead anticipating everything I can imagine especially those things that I can't... Animals coming out of no where, children playing in front yards, lights turning on from a non moving vehicle (they just started it up, but I KNOW they could easily move without looking...)... I slow down while those other "confident" drivers just blast past me... I take caution (lower speed for up coming curve) signs as if it were written by the hand of god and slow down before I get anywhere near the curve, usually to the suggested speed limit, and more often, slower...

I just wondered if this kind of driving style would influence you on my hopes to use my existing truck?

Ok... back to work... I am truly working harder just to bring in the cash to buy a larger truck... I don't even need a newer one, just a bigger one...

Thanks again!

Richard

[OutnBacker]

Richard,
As I said: Relax. If all you have is the 1/2 ton, then join countless others who successfully travel while pulling large camp trailers with the same arrangement. If you have the optional heavy duty rear brakes, then you probably have the trailer special upgrades, which may also include a lower rear differential ratio and maybe a bigger radiator and tranny cooler. All good for pulling.

Again, remember that nervous anticipation can be a hazrd in itself. Do what you are doing with a normal mindset and you'll be fine with that truck. Chain up if you feel like you should. It's like reefing: Do it at the first thought, not when it's too late.

Via con Dios

[astrorad]

Richard...I don't know about surge brakes, but electric brakes should be adjusted so they don't pull you back and they don't push you forward...at least according to the directions for my brand of brake controller.

[Dayenu]

Again,

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

That's what I was hoping to hear... Yes, our truck does have a "tow package" No tranny cooler but I had planned on having one installed... It does have the lower geared rear end (actually both front and rear since it's four wheel drive.

I'm laughing here as I was on line searching for 2500 trucks around $10,000 If I can get $5,000 for mine, that's a head start (looking at 2001 through 2002 trucks... Most seem to have gross weights of 9,000 lbs and tow capabilities of 11,000lbs... (They sure look nice with lots of features mine doesn't have...)

I just didn't want to be trying something stupid if I was reaching further than my truck's capabilities... I liked the way it drove this summer...

Cautious? We drove it a couple of days before taking it up to the lake... testing the braking distance, how it handled while braking, swerving back and forth to see how she handled (nothing fool hardy, just trying to get a real sense for how the truck handled the boat...) These were all conducted on rural out of the way (zero traffic) roads.
Tired a few short grades to see how the haul up was (NO PROBLEM with the 5.7 liter Vortec) and how she handled driving downhill.. Felt very comfortable...

Like yo mentioned... being overly cautious can be a hazard unto itself... That's why we drove around locally first for a couple of days... When we did drive up to the lake, I was a "little nervous" but after a while, the stress level came down and I just drove cautiously... especially on our way back down the mountain (I think there was a 6,000 ft elevation at the lake)... I was actually very surprised at how well the rig behaved thinking I'd have to use my brakes a lot... rarely did...

Thank you for putting my mind at ease.... I'm still shooting for a 2500 truck... I fell in love with the newer 20012 diesel but it's just way out of our price range for now... The 2001 ~ 2002 look nice and have a lot of features our current ruck doesn't... and, if I can keep it around $10,000 and consider selling our existing truck, throwing in some cash and maybe taking a very low loan for the balance, this could be an option...

Ok... Instead of working on my prototype, I'm going back to truck shopping just to get a sense of what's out there. Hopefully, there's a newer 3/4 ton truck out there waiting for us before spring!



Again, I can't thank you enough... the words you shared (all of them) did a world of good for me.

Best,
Richard

Thank you again so very much John!

[Dayenu]

just read your last words about chaining up and comparing it to reefing!

I like that kind of mindset!

[OutnBacker]

I think you're good to go then, but do get a tranny cooler installed. I think you have the 700r transmission in that truck, which was not the best idea Chevy had. They do okay as long as you keep them cooled, though. And, they are very inexpensive to replace, usually in a couple hours at a decent tranny shop. They are ubiquitous, like a can of coke, they are everywhere.

The 5.7L Vortec is, I think, the final and best iteration of the most produced V-8 in the world, the old small block GM 350. Even the V-6 version is a great motor.

You don't mention your axle spread on that truck. Is it a long bed with a super cab? A standard cab, long bed? The longer the axle spread, the more stable the tow vehicle will be. I can't remember what the standard is for Chevy, but a short box "sport truck" will tend to be squirrelier under harder braking.

[Dayenu]

Hi John,

I will be getting the transmission cooler installed before our next towing trip. I checked my notes when I was trying to determine if our truck could tow our boat. It did come with the lower differential gears (checked with the factory using VIM and Production #s... It also does have the optional larger rear brakes, larger radiator (going to get a flush this winter) and the tow package... It just didn't come with the transmission cooler. I had already gotten an estimate for installation from a highly recommended private transmission specialist (he services the vehicles for the city). Seems as if the cooler and installation are well under $300. (When I met him, I trusted what he shared regarding transmission fluid and the need for a cooler... He knows what my intended use is and... is also a sailor!

I understand the wheelbase being longer to be more desired. Our truck is a short bed with the extended cab (not the four door crew cab, the third door with shorter seats behind the front seats). I'm guessing this is equivalent to a standard cab/long bed? Either way, it's not the longest, but also, not the shortest.

Just got two more projects yesterday! I took them both! When it rains, it pours! Coming from no projects to a almost more than I can handle is the roller coaster story of my life (and probably many who are self employed...) If things keep going like they are, we're looking to buy a 3/4 ton truck before our planned spring trip to LA!

Thanks again!

Richard

[OutnBacker]

All good. And yes, the truck length is a standard.

Have fun

[Dayenu]

Again,

Thank you so much!!!

This past summer, Tresa and I had HUGE plans to go sail the Sea of Cortez Her love is dolphins (With all her sailing, (mostly great lakes), she's never seen one in person.) At San Carlos, there's a hugs pod that regularly great every boat heading out of the harbor... Between not enough money, then too many jobs (timing vs cash flow), we opted to downsize our summer trip to Los Angeles (My old sailing grounds with lots of friends and offers to slip at a few yacht clubs), then my hand injury and after we knew what happened, our adventure turned into a 3 week shake down cruise at our local lake... (Lord, I am not complaining! it was the right thing to do with a boat we had not sailed before. We have big plans to do the entire length of the Sea of Cortez and the Inter coastal Waterway when Tresa retires (about 4 years)... Out shake down cruise was like a honeymoon... All our questions were answered wonderfully... mostly, could we actually live on a C-26 for long periods of time... With just the two of us, absolutely!)

So when we got home, we erased our 10 foot long planning board and put up a planning chart of the San Juan Islands (coming next summer)... but still... snow and cold temperatures are coming, the boat that once was clearly visible from our kitchen window now sports a canvas cover....

Dreams... We need dreams! Dreams that happen sooner than summer.... Winter is the height of my work season and she gets two weeks off for spring break... The answer: LA! We scoured the youtube videos for videos of LA, Catalina Malibu sailing.... We found dolphins! (God I wish you could see her... Tresa goes into a state of rapture, wanting to communicate with them (She's a state certified master gardener and is in to some really spiritual, mental work (so am I, but she leads in this department... I truly believe that if she ever encountered a dolphin the dolphin would stop and talk with her... Her positive energy saves me day after day... She comes home with a smile and sparkly eyes and I don't care how bad a day I had trying to make my mechanical inventions work with tight deadlines, she snaps me out of it with just her smile...

As you can guess, all I want to do is deliver dolphins to her! (I've shared stories of Dolphin Frenzies happening all around me when I've solo sailed in the Pacific... At one time (twice in the same day) a pod of dolphins swam up to my inflatable dinghy and played with me (and the boat) for over an hour... up close and personal, spinning the boat as the bumped and rubbed... Tresa went to tears hearing these stories and all I want to do is deliver her to dolphins!

Just wanted to share what was going on behind my questions and battle between desperately wanting to take her to LA this spring, but also careful and not wanting to endanger ourselves trying to get there....

So, there you have it!



She's coming home in a few minutes... can't wait to see her...

Thee are a lot of photos of her working on Dayenu (Sanding teak until 2 and 3 in the morning and wet sanding the hull in 100+ degrees! She's not just a true sailor, she's a real "trooper" too and I thank god for her every day...

If you haven't seen the photos (I started another thread around her with links to photobucket, working on her, sailing, 12 volt home made blender... good stuff... If you haven't seen them and want to, I'll come back here and post a link.

Thanks again John! As serious as I am about fining a 3/4 ton truck before spring, it's nice knowing this trip won't fall through the cracks!

Best,
Richard

[Anhinga]

I've been caught I the snow with my '26 twice now. You don't want to be there. I use a Dodge 1/2 tonner and don't have trouble in the summer moving or braking. In the snow it won't stop, and won't turn. The weight on the hitch makes the front just light enough that the front brakes lock up right away. the front end will slide rather than turn the rig. Another smaller issue is the rear end sliding sideways at a standing start as you get moving and the driving wheels slip a bit even being really light on the throttle. If the snow is sticking I'll stay parked. The entire dynamic changes when you grease up the road!

Best!

-JK

[OutnBacker]

In such situations, studded tires and/or chains will solve most of those issues. As to the steering loss, there is a balance point to every tow. Perhaps you have too much tongue weight. One way to treat that is by having a telescoping trailer tongue installed. If you already have one for launching, have it modified for towing with stepped adjustment holes/pins so you can adjust the tongue weight as you need to. The longer the tongue, the less weight on the vehicle, etc. Or, so said Archimedes.

Semis get some of the same benefit by sliding their 5th wheels fwd or aft to get more or less weight on the steers.

In the end, though, you have chosen the best policy: wait it out til the DOT crews come through.

[Dayenu]

Thanks to both of you...

LOTS of GREAT info!

Although I haven't weighed our tongue yet, the truck sits flat without any noticeable drop at the hitch (Tow package with HD springs). and after "test swerving" to check for steering, I like the way our trailer balances out with our truck. (I've driven trucks towing heavy tongued trailers and could feel what you're talking about... like the front end wanted to lift the tires off the ground.

I also spun out once at the bottom of the grapevine towing a trailer that was WAY to heavy at it's tail (moving a shop with heavy machinery from LA to Oregon... Nothing happened as I fishtailed out of control in the (back then) dirt, center divider... I pulled over after the near heart attack and repacked the trailer at the near-by rest stop!)

I will most likely side with both of you regarding just staying put when it comes to snow on the ground. I still want to be prepped should we need to "crawl" to a motel to wait out a night.

Just measured my trailer's fenders which are way too close to the tires while wearing chains... (I can just imagine the chains tearing apart the fenders, plus some more clearance would make mounting them a lot easier.) When I get to it, I will make full size templates for the aluminum extenders that should just bolt on to accomplish this... (Easy Loader trailer)

Geeze! I want to be working on our boat! I just completed two client prototype projects, one is on it's way to completion and another is supposed to start in the next day or two... Not sure which boat project will come first, but I have a whole wall of dry-erase marker board with "To-do" lists to choose from! LOL!

Thanks again guys!

Richard

[OutnBacker]

I've seen some wicked stuff on the Grapevine. I still can't wrap my head around how an 18-wheeler can leave ragged tracks 100 feet up the side of the slow lane bank - on the uphill grade. Defies explanation.

[double "D"]

[CaptainScott]

Good tips and welcome back!
Scott