Manowar repair

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:54 am

I have a manowar that I just got. It is in need of a few repairs. The previous owner put fiberglass over the inspection ports and hence it hasn't been able to dry out and it has some water in the hull. I found this out unfortunately while hauling the boat home. The trailer isn't set up correctly and made a small crack in the hull which started to leak some water. What would you guys suggest as the repair procedure? I was thinking I'd separate the hull and repair the crack from the inside. I was also thinking of putting something like this this instead of the round ports so I can have more storage and dry out any water that should get in. Should I look at replacing the wood as well? Do you guys think I should install a self bailer as well? It is also lacking. Any tips for separating the hull?
Thanks,
Isaac.S

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:36 am

Well let me be the first to welcome you to the Chrysler forum! I see your from Washington also! Very cool! There a few of us here from Washington! I grew up in Eastern Washington but now live in the west!

Hang tight and one of the man-o-war experts will likely chime in!

FYI, I like self bailers. I never liked the one that came in the Chrysler Dagger though. I strongly prefer the style in an Alcort Sunfish of similar vinatge. The Dagger self bailer always let water back in. Not much but it always leaked some. Even when pulled up. The ball in the Sunfish bailer seemed to work better. Well, in my case anyway!

Again Welcome!

Scott

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:50 am

Thanks Scott for the welcome. I started out with a Sears Jetwind, actually only have sailed it 3 times but totally fell in love with sailing. I happened upon this boat on craigslist and thought it would be a nice upgrade to fiberglass hull.
It has a homemade rudder that doesn't swing. Should I modify it so that it does swing or build a new one? I really don't want to get stuck partway out from shore.

Can hardly wait for the water to warm up!

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:41 am

I can't speak for the man-o-war specifically but a none swinging daggerboard and non swinging rudder are not a horrible thing. Just kind of a pita. If you beach the boat a daggerboard can slide straight up but a fixed rudder might hit so use caution. Also if you sail in shallow or rocky waters you could create a problem.

If you have the where-with-all, by all means, change it however I would not knock myself out worrying over it. Just don't go aground!

By the way, warm water around here is a myth! Get a 4 mil wetsuit and have at it! LOL!

Where are you sailing it? Coeur d' Alene?
I learened to sail on Moses Lake! Grew up there!
Scott

IslandHopper · Post by **IslandHopper** » Sun May 10, 2009 9:47 am

I put an Anderson Mini-Bailer in mine ... works great, seals well. (but needs 5+ knots to work:) )

I've thought about replacing my two round ports with a larger rectangular one also, but... that wall supports the deck right above it... I'm not sure how much it would weaken it by removing that vertical bit between the two ports. (But it would sure make stowing the mast a LOT easier!)

I don't think I'd support the idea of separating the hull/deck... No telling how much bonding there is between the two, and getting it back together with a good seal could be near impossible without the jigs!

Better to cut a portal in the rear deck, and perhaps each interior side of the cockpit if you really want to get to the floatation. (I put one on my bow-deck so I could get to the bow-eye and cleat... there's photos if you search here.)

My floatation is pretty well waterlogged, but I don't feel like putting in the work to dig it out and replace it ... the boat is easily 100+# heavier than it should be, but it still floats, even when swamped, and I'm not racing anyone, so I live with it.

Bhacurly · Post by **Bhacurly** » Sun May 10, 2009 10:33 am

Welcome Isaac!

Missed the first one, sorry... I live in Spokane also and would be glad to help where I can. I'll PM you my cell #.....

Billy

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Tue May 12, 2009 9:16 am

Isaac,

I agree with Islandhopper in regards to the hatch and separating the hull. Not a good idea in either case.

Check back on some earlier Manowar posts and you will see a picture of the new round ports I put in mine. It should give you a good idea of where to put them. Also, I fortified the section of the cockpit between the two portals to give it more strength.

You will also find pictures and dimensions of the rudder and tiller I have in case you wanted to try to reproduce it. As an inland lake sailor I highly recommend a tilting rudder.

A swivel daggerboard would be nice, but you would have to significantly modify the trunk and lose space in the cockpit. Boats this size typically do not have swivel daggerboards. Instead, I have modified my daggerboard to adjust the height when in known shallows. However, a swiveled daggerboard would have save me on the rocks a few times. Spring a leak after the last time I hit hard and right now I'm looking at some trunk repair before I can put it out on the water this year.

Welcome aboard,
Lee

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Tue May 12, 2009 7:08 pm

Hey thanks for all the replies. I have uploaded some pictures to flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/37632669@N07/ so you guys can check out the damage. I originally thought I only had a crack on one side but both sides are cracked so I'll probably go with two ports on the sidewall of the cockpit area. What do you guys think of that?
Regarding the hatch up to the bow area, what about using an aluminum plate to reinforce? I was just thinking it would be nice to have a place to put a few dry bags with gear. I also was trying to eliminate the patch that is currently in place.
I think my foam must be wet since there was water on the inside of the hull and the boat is at least 100 pounds overweight. I think I'll try noodles if I need to add flotation. Hopefully getting a hatch in place will allow the foam to dry out though. I'll put a screen there to keep rodents out but still allow air flow while in storage.
The patch

Does this need repaired?

One of the cracks

Another angle

IslandHopper · Post by **IslandHopper** » Wed May 13, 2009 8:24 am

The little crack at the ends of the daggerboard-trunk?... If they don't leak, I wouldn't bother with them. (But that's just me... I'd rather be sailing than waiting for epoxy to dry

)

As for the bow-hatch, since you have to work it over anyway (and you do need to get that opened up!), you might as well go with the rectangular hatch... again, I wouldn't hesitate to go that route if I were going to be altering things up there anyhow.

If you put in hatches on the sides (to see/access the floatation) I wouldn't bother trying to get it to "dry out". Just rip all the waterlogged stuff out of there... if it's really soaked through, it'll never dry anyhow

. Replacing it with a bunch of "pool noodles" is exactly what I had thought of doing also!

I really don't know what to tell you about the cracks along the bottom of the hull... you say they allow water in?...
A lot of work, but I'd almost be tempted to just glass in another layer of cloth over the entire bottom (from the outside) to re-seal everything. It won't be all that pretty (unless you're really good at that sort of thing) but at least you'd add some strength and know it'd be watertight. (Plus, you'd get at the cracks around the dagger trunk at the same time!

)

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Wed May 13, 2009 8:29 am

Thanks IslandHopper, I was planning on cutting the holes in the side of the cockpit so I could glass the cracks on the bottom from the inside. I know the cracks on the bottom leak because the let water that was on the inside come out

I suppose if I put the holes in the right place I could repair the centerboard truck as well. Thanks for the input.
Isaac.S

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Wed May 13, 2009 10:40 am

isaacs wrote:Thanks IslandHopper, I was planning on cutting the holes in the side of the cockpit so I could glass the cracks on the bottom from the inside. I know the cracks on the bottom leak because the let water that was on the inside come out I suppose if I put the holes in the right place I could repair the centerboard truck as well. Thanks for the input.
Isaac.S

You say the cracks are on the bottom? If so, then you don't need to put access panels in the sides of the cockpit. The floor of the cockpit IS the bottom of the boat. I'm assuming however, you just meant the hull and the cracks are within the area covered by the cockpit and deck sides. It looks like the last picture shows a crack on the very bottom, but I can't tell if the other crack is on the side or not.

Anyway, I also noticed from the first picture that you are lacking a drain hole for the front birth. You should have a hole right at the V where the floor and glassed over panel of the cockpit meet. You will need this hole because the sides are higher up and will not allow water to flow to the back. Whatever water that comes out of the bow you will just need to bail from the cockpit. Do you have a drain hole in the transom?

Btw, all the foam in my boat had deteriorated and turned into a crumbled mess. I sucked up most of it with a shop vac and actually did use pool noodles to stuff in the cavities. Not sure if they really do anything or not because I have not capsized the boat to the point that it was totally flooded. It would be pretty hard to do with the floating mast.

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Wed May 13, 2009 11:20 am

Thanks Leeway, I was hoping to avoid a leak point by having the 6" access ports on the floor of the cockpit. I was planning on being a contortionist to repair the cracks on the bottom of the boat. It shouldn't be too bad. edit: So you are saying that the floor of the cockpit is the bottom of the boat? Hmmm I hadn't considered that. I'll have to do some measuring to see where the cracks are located. Perhaps they aren't on the bottom of the cockpit but where the cockpit joins the sides of the hull.
So does the drain in the front of the boat go to the inside of the hull? I am not all that up on boat lingo so you are saying that the drain should be in front of the centerboard trunk right at the front wall of the cockpit? Would it drain into the front of the cockpit then? I am not sure I understand you properly.
Hopefully I'll understand it all better when I can get home and look at the boat again.
Thanks,
Isaac.S

IslandHopper · Post by **IslandHopper** » Wed May 13, 2009 3:40 pm

Construction.

Here's one way to picture the construction of your vessel:
All the white part is a "single piece"... it is laid up in one mold... the bottom hull, the cockpit sides, the daggerboard trunk, and the transom. It's all a "single piece" of fiberglass.
The red part (the "top" of the boat) is laid up in a second mold, then the two pieces are joined where the aluminum crimp molding is.

That might help you understand how the thing is put together, or it might just confuse you more

Here's a pic of the drain hole he was talking about ... to drain the interior of the bow into the cockpit: (just below the access holes in the cockpit forward bulkhead.)

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Wed May 13, 2009 4:40 pm

Thanks IslandHopper, that clears it up for me. I also looked at my boat when I got home so that helped too. I think the cracks are where the cockpit sidewall meets the floor on the outside edge. I can't see the cracks from inside the cockpit so it must be in the hull area.
I do have a drain in the transom. Drained about a half gallon of water out. So here are my remaining questions:
1. If I go with the rectangular hatch, should I do an aluminum bulk head so to speak? Or would some cloth laid up on the edge be sufficient structurally?
2. Where is the ideal location for trailer supports so that I don't crack the hull again? Does anyone have a stock trailer that they can get the measurements off?
3. Do you think one port on each side of the cockpit is enough to repair the cracks and remove the foam? Or do you think 2 on each side would be better?
Thanks, You guys are a big help. I'll be posting some pics of my dad's mutineer that needs some repair.
Isaac.S

IslandHopper · Post by **IslandHopper** » Wed May 13, 2009 8:21 pm

1. I'd just put in a plastic rectangle hatch and not worry about reinforcing anything ... I haven't changed mine, mostly for that reason... but if I were in your shoes, having to cut a new hole ANYWAY, I'd just put the hatch I want in there and be done with it. (something that can be closed off would go a long way towards keeping the wasps from building nests in there in my area!)

2. The boat isn't THAT heavy... I'd guess it was stored for some time with something much heavier sitting on top of the boat... The boat by itself shouldn't cause that!
But if you're going to be creating a trailer for it... try to make the beds contact the hull directly under where the cockpit sidewalls are... that's where you're gonna have the most interior support. My trailer also has a roller towards the front in the center... I have that positioned such that it rests directly under the mast-step... again, that's where the interior structure is to provide support.

3. I'd probably try to go with one on each side... I don't know that it would make any difference, structurally, but I'd try to minimize the number of holes and the amount of cutting you'll do. HOWEVER!... it might be that having two holes per side (or even just one larger one) would make the job so much easier that it would be worth it!

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Sun May 17, 2009 7:23 pm

I am debating between this hatch (bigger) hatch and this this hatch (smaller hinging). I am thinking the smaller one and I like that it hinges. Any concerns?
Also I am thinking of these ports (4.5 in) or these 6 in plates. Thoughts? Bigger is better?
Thanks,
Isaac.S

IslandHopper · Post by **IslandHopper** » Mon May 18, 2009 11:09 am

isaacs wrote:... Thoughts? Bigger is better?

I'd say bigger is better with the ports for accessing the cockpit side floatation areas. Make sure the sidewall is tall enough that you can install them there though. I put a 6" port in my bow (for access to the bow cleat and pad-eye installation)... and it's still barely big enough to get a hand up in there and dig around!

For the hatch to the bow area, I'd go with the hinged one... it will stay attached... one less thing to float away. (My boat gets swamped frequently... I like to sail past my/it's capabilities

)
Also... I'd put the hinge on the bottom... It'll stay open when you want it to that way.

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:26 am

So I got the ports, cut out access holes and found that the crack in the bottom is directly under the cockpit wall and isn't accessible since it has a > 90 degree lip that goes outward from the boat hull. I will have to grind the bottom now and glass it. I will be da-ing the bottom and repainting. Will auto paint work? In the mean time I sealed it with expanding foam to add some structural strength.

I also found out that not all the manowars had swing rudders. Someone was selling one on cl this week and they have the same fixed aluminum rudder that I have.

I have some questions about rigging though. I am trying to understand how to furl the sail and get the reefing line hooked up. Can someone send me photos?

Thanks for any advice on rigging you can send my way.
Isaac.S

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:31 am

One more thing, the centerboard is really really tight to drop down while the boat is on the trailer. Is that normal?

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:22 pm

isaacs wrote:I have some questions about rigging though. I am trying to understand how to furl the sail and get the reefing line hooked up. Can someone send me photos?

Thanks for any advice on rigging you can send my way.
Isaac.S

Isaac,

The sail on the Man-o-war is a sleeve type. The mast fits right in this sleeve with a stop at the top. Typically you have to twist the mast to furl and unfurl the sail. This has to be done with the boom disconnected from the sail and deck cleat.

Now, some people have modified the sail so that you can hoist it up and down. If yours is like this, sorry, I can not help you.

If you have the original setup with fiddle block, becket and cleat then there is a picture here that will help you rig the main sheet.

Hope this helps.

Lee

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:30 pm

isaacs wrote:One more thing, the centerboard is really really tight to drop down while the boat is on the trailer. Is that normal?

It should not be really tight. Are you sure it's not rubbing on the trailer?
From the picture you posted previously it looks like one of the former owners changed the center board stop on the trunk. You have a nice wood finish and the original boats had a plastic cover over glassed plywood (See picture IslandHopper posted). Your rudder is probably not original either and that's why it does not tilt.

Please send more pictures of the various parts of your boat you have question on. We might be able to figure everything out from them.

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:37 pm

Lee,
Thanks, I have been looking at that picture but what I am unclear on is

Tie the 48-inch piece of 3/16-inch reefing line to this strap and stow by wrapping it around the mast.....

Tie a 24-inch piece of 3/16-inch line to the downhaul pad on the boom and run it through one of the two jam cleats just aft of the mast. Put enough tension on the line to smooth out any wrinkles or puckers along the luff of the sail and to show some slight tension along the luff of the sail.

The reefing line that was wound on the mast in step 1 should be unrolled to enough length to secure it to the remaining jam cleat on the deck aft of the mast.

I am not sure how it attaches at the gooseneck.
Also do you guys run battens? I don't have any and my friend offered me some aluminum ones from hang gliders. Would those work or are these battens flat?
Thanks,
Isaac.S

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:11 pm

Have a look see here for a manual you may or may not have seen

Updated Chrysler Manuals

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:22 pm

OK, I get what you are talking about now. My main and boom have had some alterations from original, so it's a little different than yours might be.

I'll have to look it over at home to refresh my memory on how it would be rigged if it were original.

However, the 24" line should be tied around the boom near the goose neck and through the eye strap on the top of the boom. The main should be secured to this eye strap as well (I have spring clips to do this). Then you pull down on this line until the sail is taught and secure by placing through one of the jam cleats on the deck just aft of the mast.

The 48" line is connected to the eye strap at the base of the mast, wrapped around the mast several times and then through the other jam cleat on the deck.

Does this help?

Like I've said, mine is rigged different. I have a block on the boom and one on the mast that serve the purpose of both lines used above.

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:27 pm

I think I get it. I'll have to look when I get home. I have a spring clip up at the luff but I wasn't sure if the boom clipped on there how the sail could be furled. I guess that is where my confusion is. If the luff is clipped can you furl the sail and if so what holds the boom gooseneck up.
Thanks,
Isaac.S

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:46 pm

isaacs wrote:I think I get it. I'll have to look when I get home. I have a spring clip up at the luff but I wasn't sure if the boom clipped on there how the sail could be furled. I guess that is where my confusion is. If the luff is clipped can you furl the sail and if so what holds the boom gooseneck up.
Thanks,
Isaac.S

The answer is... You don't while underway. I have not found a time when I had to furl the sail while underway. When back at port you would need to disconnect the boom from the sail and lay it on the deck to furl the sail. since it is much easier to twist the mast to do this, you would also have to disconnect the mast from the deck as well.

So, to do this while underway would be incredibly difficult to do, especially single-handed. However, I guess if you wanted to stop for a while and have a lunch or go fishing, you could head up into the wind and get this done OK.

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:00 pm

Btw, the battens should be flat. I will have to measure mine and reply back. The originals were wood battens. The previous owner who bought the boat to fixup and sell could not find the battens. He made some out of sheets of fiberglass and the work real well.

I later found all three battens inside the sides of the hull. However, they were all dry rotted and could not be used.

Also, as far as paint goes. Do some searching on this forum. The same paint the guys use for the C22/C26 will work on the man-o-war. I recommend a 2-part epoxy for the bottom for durability.

isaacs · Post by **isaacs** » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:36 pm

Ok I took some more photos to show what I have going.

The centerboard is really tight as you can see. I removed the wood trim piece and it is still really tight. Perhaps the centerboard is not original?

Also it appears that I am missing some cleats aft of the mast step. Also should the pulley be on the mast near the bottom? If so will the rope attache to the bottom of the boom thread through the pulley and down to the cleat on the deck?
Thanks so much for all the help you guys have provided.

Trunk that is too tight

Rub marks on centerboard

Mast step

Rudder and golf club extender (I got the extender free at a golf place)

Another rudder shot.

Leeway · Post by **Leeway** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:51 am

The wood trim piece from the trunk is definitely not original, but looks nice and should work just fine. The glassed wood around the trunk lip appears OK. Is it solid? I think the centerboard is original, but not sure without dimensions (thickness).

Is the center board tight as soon as you put it in or when you get to a certain point? I think the trunk sleeve has warped around the middle. Not much you can do about that without possibly cutting out the support struts and shaving them down a bit before glassing them back in place. That's where I am right now in my repairs.

If you are going to do that, you should probably just replace the wood along the lip. Don't know why, but Chrysler didn't epoxy or glass the top of that section and so it is prone to rotting like mine did.

The rudder and gudgeon are not original. That's too bad because this boat beaches very well with a tilting rudder. I like the golf club tiller extension, very cool!

You are missing one cleat from the deck at the base of the mast and the other one has been moved aft. I'm going to start working on my boat again this Friday and will take some pics of how my mast, sail, and boom are connected.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:24 am

Welcome aboard Isaacs,

Looks like the other Manowar experts have your question in hand. I to am in Washington with a C-22, so I'll just say Hi as I think the photo's in this posting are the most I've seen of a Manowar. Good to see it's in good hands.

Thanks
Alan