fixed keel content?
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captcarl
fixed keel content?
does anyone know the material make-up of a fixed keel 26, lead or iron?
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EmergencyExit
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This came up in a previous thread and was unanswered.... Gus talked about lead shot and concrete.. I am mystified myself... I figure they did as all other high production manufacturers did and used the swing keel hull and just bolted a iron ( I hope not) or lead ( I hope so) fin keel on to the stub....
But I don't see any keel bolts, nor typical tell-tale hairline cracks nor rust spots ( if iron) in my lower outer hull were the keel would meet the glass hull. So..... I am thinking that maybe they made a special fixed keel hull mold and filled the cavity with lead shot and concrete.. could this be? I doubt it.... but if I run aground I would like to know I will hit with lead ( I hope) or iron and not glass!
But I don't see any keel bolts, nor typical tell-tale hairline cracks nor rust spots ( if iron) in my lower outer hull were the keel would meet the glass hull. So..... I am thinking that maybe they made a special fixed keel hull mold and filled the cavity with lead shot and concrete.. could this be? I doubt it.... but if I run aground I would like to know I will hit with lead ( I hope) or iron and not glass!
C-26, Fixed Keel # 343
Don't know about a glass jaw
but pretty sure you're right on the glass keel.
Every C26 FK pic I've seen looks like an integral keel, which I assume (yeah, I know) is filled with something heavy. If I'm at the lake this weekend (debatable... trailer needs work) I can grab a mask and dive on a FK 26 that's there.
If you think about it, the C26 swing keel trunk is an integral part of the hull, so the mold was already set. Makes sense they'd just extend it another 18-24" and fill it with more of the same ballast.
If I was fortunate enough to have a FK C26 (I really, really want one), I'd consider grinding the gel coat off of the leading edge and bottom, then reinforcing with some Kevlar or Twaron tape and epoxy. If I were more motivated and had more time, I'll bet adding a nice NACA profile to the keel would make her scream to windward.
Surely one of you FK folks has hauled and gazed... what's the right answer?
Every C26 FK pic I've seen looks like an integral keel, which I assume (yeah, I know) is filled with something heavy. If I'm at the lake this weekend (debatable... trailer needs work) I can grab a mask and dive on a FK 26 that's there.
If you think about it, the C26 swing keel trunk is an integral part of the hull, so the mold was already set. Makes sense they'd just extend it another 18-24" and fill it with more of the same ballast.
If I was fortunate enough to have a FK C26 (I really, really want one), I'd consider grinding the gel coat off of the leading edge and bottom, then reinforcing with some Kevlar or Twaron tape and epoxy. If I were more motivated and had more time, I'll bet adding a nice NACA profile to the keel would make her scream to windward.
Surely one of you FK folks has hauled and gazed... what's the right answer?
Jeff
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
Jeff,
I guess I am right... the good is that I don't have to worry about rusting keel bolts or an iron keel... BUT not happy about a grounding... do you think a few kevlar layers would make a difference ? and I would love to fair the keel as I did to wonderful effect on a lead keeled J-30 but can you really fair a glass/gelcoat keel?
I guess I am right... the good is that I don't have to worry about rusting keel bolts or an iron keel... BUT not happy about a grounding... do you think a few kevlar layers would make a difference ? and I would love to fair the keel as I did to wonderful effect on a lead keeled J-30 but can you really fair a glass/gelcoat keel?
C-26, Fixed Keel # 343
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EmergencyExit
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A good clue on Avocet's site seems to back up the one piece hull with lead ballast. Here's the quote and the link;
"The keel is fiberglass encapsulated, 2400 pounds, with a draft of 4'2" and a total displacement of 5500 pounds. The ballast consists of lead shot pellets mixed in concrete. The hull was taken down to the gelcoat around 1995 and VC17m original applied. " http://users.accesscomm.ca/gbabish/keel.html
There's no mention of a bolt on keel in Avocet's pages.
I'm thinking along the same lines as Jeff is. These boats were designed as production level boats, so as simple production scheme as possible was likely followed. It stands to reason that if the swing keels got lead bars in foam, or lead shot in concrete so did the full keels.
Who knows maybe they all were cast as full keels and the keels were cut off to make the shoal keel, and the pocket was added.
"The keel is fiberglass encapsulated, 2400 pounds, with a draft of 4'2" and a total displacement of 5500 pounds. The ballast consists of lead shot pellets mixed in concrete. The hull was taken down to the gelcoat around 1995 and VC17m original applied. " http://users.accesscomm.ca/gbabish/keel.html
There's no mention of a bolt on keel in Avocet's pages.
I'm thinking along the same lines as Jeff is. These boats were designed as production level boats, so as simple production scheme as possible was likely followed. It stands to reason that if the swing keels got lead bars in foam, or lead shot in concrete so did the full keels.
Who knows maybe they all were cast as full keels and the keels were cut off to make the shoal keel, and the pocket was added.
Kevlar tough stuff
Back in my whitewater boating days, people use Kevlar felt grunch pads on the bow and stern of their ABS laminate canoes to protect against the inevitable impact of water-laden bow (or stern, if you're running a drop) on submerged rocks. Not bomb proof, but effective nevertheless.
You'd have to take a hard look (no pun intended) at the project to see if it's worth it for you. To avoid creating a stress riser you'd need to use multiple layers to create a tapered edge. Sanding glass is always a pain, it can be hard to get a good, smooth, bubble free application, and final fairing takes longer than expected. If you did a NACA profile on the whole keel, it would take much longer (but should end up fast fast fast and pointing like Lassie back on the water).
On Pamlico, Chesapeake or Lake St. Clair, most groundings go squish rather than bang... running aground is a usually humbling embarrassment rather than an exercise in carnage, so might not justify the effort unless you have the time and inclination. If you sail in crunchier waters, it should add a measure of psychological comfort.
When I rebuilt Windward's swing keel trunk, I way overdid it. Since then, the keel's been lifted and slammed down hard a couple of times when I crossed a submerged cable at the dock, and really hard twice when I found hard, shallow objects in what should have been 15 and 75 feet of water, respectively. The 15 foot affair was probably a submerged tree trunk, and the impact wedged the keel hard enough that I broke the pendant trying to winch it up (upsized to 1/4" since then). It took some planned impact at the launch ramp to free the keel. No damage that I can detect from any of those unfortunate events, and thus I believe that some well-applied kevlar, twaron or similar reinforcement could also give a fixed keel some extra protection.
Or you could just never run aground or hit anything
I've not mastered that approach, but I understand that some people favor low impact sailing.
You'd have to take a hard look (no pun intended) at the project to see if it's worth it for you. To avoid creating a stress riser you'd need to use multiple layers to create a tapered edge. Sanding glass is always a pain, it can be hard to get a good, smooth, bubble free application, and final fairing takes longer than expected. If you did a NACA profile on the whole keel, it would take much longer (but should end up fast fast fast and pointing like Lassie back on the water).
On Pamlico, Chesapeake or Lake St. Clair, most groundings go squish rather than bang... running aground is a usually humbling embarrassment rather than an exercise in carnage, so might not justify the effort unless you have the time and inclination. If you sail in crunchier waters, it should add a measure of psychological comfort.
When I rebuilt Windward's swing keel trunk, I way overdid it. Since then, the keel's been lifted and slammed down hard a couple of times when I crossed a submerged cable at the dock, and really hard twice when I found hard, shallow objects in what should have been 15 and 75 feet of water, respectively. The 15 foot affair was probably a submerged tree trunk, and the impact wedged the keel hard enough that I broke the pendant trying to winch it up (upsized to 1/4" since then). It took some planned impact at the launch ramp to free the keel. No damage that I can detect from any of those unfortunate events, and thus I believe that some well-applied kevlar, twaron or similar reinforcement could also give a fixed keel some extra protection.
Or you could just never run aground or hit anything
I've not mastered that approach, but I understand that some people favor low impact sailing.Jeff
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
EE,
thanks to you and esp. Avocet... what a great documented site that capn' has and it a terrific resource... I am glad it is still up and running...
Jeff,
I sail a fixed keel in shallow waters.. so I am worried, where I sail if you hit, you hit rock, big umovable undewater rock...
sailing the J-30 to Martha's vinyard out of Newport one night .. I cheated and cut the corner and hit the outer edge of bretton reef under full sail at a good 6-7 knots.... the boat came to a full and immediate stop. upon haul out, at the very tip of teh foward edge of the keel was a small half grapefruit sized dent in the lead keel that was easily filled in with lead, faired and amazingly no stress to t eh rest of the hull... I appreciated good construction in a boat since then!.....
Now if I hit a rock with the c-26 keel.... waht would happen? crack the glass, would the hull start taking on water? or is it filled with cement and sealed? would the whole glass hull crack open upward above the keel....I have seen some nasty crack-ups in corvettes and the impact opens up a pretty long crack? would kevlar wrap protect the damage, limit the lenght of the crack, keep the interity and keep her afloat?
thanks to you and esp. Avocet... what a great documented site that capn' has and it a terrific resource... I am glad it is still up and running...
Jeff,
I sail a fixed keel in shallow waters.. so I am worried, where I sail if you hit, you hit rock, big umovable undewater rock...
sailing the J-30 to Martha's vinyard out of Newport one night .. I cheated and cut the corner and hit the outer edge of bretton reef under full sail at a good 6-7 knots.... the boat came to a full and immediate stop. upon haul out, at the very tip of teh foward edge of the keel was a small half grapefruit sized dent in the lead keel that was easily filled in with lead, faired and amazingly no stress to t eh rest of the hull... I appreciated good construction in a boat since then!.....
Now if I hit a rock with the c-26 keel.... waht would happen? crack the glass, would the hull start taking on water? or is it filled with cement and sealed? would the whole glass hull crack open upward above the keel....I have seen some nasty crack-ups in corvettes and the impact opens up a pretty long crack? would kevlar wrap protect the damage, limit the lenght of the crack, keep the interity and keep her afloat?
C-26, Fixed Keel # 343
You're out of my depth...
no pun intended. Based on lack of first-hand knowledge of the keel in question, the uniformity of construction, and the situational stuff -- what will you hit, how hard, and how's your karma -- I'd cling to maxims:
=>Expect the worst
=>Assume construction isn't what I'm hoping
=>Prepare for it as well as I can
=>Hope for the best
If I were personally trying to address the concerns and situations you enumerate, I'd go with the pound of prevention:
=>Good charts and supporting nav gear
=>good depth sounder, with a depth alarm
=>well-applied, multi-layered, tapered Kevlar/Twaron along the leading edge, trailing edge and base of the keel
=>carry it up along the hull past the leading and trailing edge of the keel in an attempt to minimize stress risers
I'd also keep on board a couple of pounds of cure:
=>something to cover a hull hole with (tarp, sails??)
=>a tube of 5200 quick set
=>if there were tape that would really stick underwater, I'd be there
and go heavy on the bilge pumps...
=>one modestly sized auto/float, probably around centerline beneath the head and wired to a bilge alarm
=>a second, super high capacity with a manual switch, in the same area
=>add a removable access port so both are accessible;
=>another modestly sized auto/float in the keel space ahead of the aft berth, beneath the stairs, also wired to the bilge alarm
=>a removable access port above it, which also permits you to drain the cabin sole
=>if I were really paranoid, I'd add a manual pump to the mix
and make sure I had good:
=> flares
=> radio
How's that for overkill?
=>Expect the worst
=>Assume construction isn't what I'm hoping
=>Prepare for it as well as I can
=>Hope for the best
If I were personally trying to address the concerns and situations you enumerate, I'd go with the pound of prevention:
=>Good charts and supporting nav gear
=>good depth sounder, with a depth alarm
=>well-applied, multi-layered, tapered Kevlar/Twaron along the leading edge, trailing edge and base of the keel
=>carry it up along the hull past the leading and trailing edge of the keel in an attempt to minimize stress risers
I'd also keep on board a couple of pounds of cure:
=>something to cover a hull hole with (tarp, sails??)
=>a tube of 5200 quick set
=>if there were tape that would really stick underwater, I'd be there
and go heavy on the bilge pumps...
=>one modestly sized auto/float, probably around centerline beneath the head and wired to a bilge alarm
=>a second, super high capacity with a manual switch, in the same area
=>add a removable access port so both are accessible;
=>another modestly sized auto/float in the keel space ahead of the aft berth, beneath the stairs, also wired to the bilge alarm
=>a removable access port above it, which also permits you to drain the cabin sole
=>if I were really paranoid, I'd add a manual pump to the mix
and make sure I had good:
=> flares
=> radio
How's that for overkill?
Jeff
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
s/v Windward
1978 C-26 #481
http://www.lizards.net
http://www.sv-windward.com
http://www.chryslersailing.com
Ok,
what we have is called " a glass encapsulated lead ballast" keel. ( kinda like a glass jaw) A grounding hit can be a big ugly problem... keel was not designed or meant to hit hard things.
I will definately serriously look into doing the "Jeff Keel Hardening" project now to my (growing) winter list -- UGH!
from my limited investigation.. you really don't want to hit something.
what we have is called " a glass encapsulated lead ballast" keel. ( kinda like a glass jaw) A grounding hit can be a big ugly problem... keel was not designed or meant to hit hard things.
I will definately serriously look into doing the "Jeff Keel Hardening" project now to my (growing) winter list -- UGH!
from my limited investigation.. you really don't want to hit something.
C-26, Fixed Keel # 343
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frankyd
fixed keel info
I have looked in my fixed keel and I found it to be as described. It is a single mould with lead bird shot mixed with a thin concrete cast into the keel. The keel is completely filled with the exception of the rear most portion, it is divided with a glassed in wall and makes for a deep narrow bilge that runs down the aprox 2 feet of the rear of the keel.
I feel confident in the design. Before buying the c26 I researched the competitors and the catalina 27 is known to commonly get what they called "the smile" which is a crack where the stress of its fixed keel cracks the hull where the front of the keel meets the hull. We have had zero reports of fixed keel related problems.
I imagine that an impact with a hard object would be best with this keel design. The fiberglass is backed up by the lead block reducing damage and the size of the hole and would serve to reduce the flow of any leak. Also the impact is going to be spread across the hull instead of focused on a handfull of keel bolts.
I am more worried about an impact on the hull in an area not backed up by concrete/lead and would be tempted to reinforce the area from the top of the keel to the bow.
I have come to the conclusion though that my most effective route will be to compartmentalize as much of the boat as possible.
I feel confident in the design. Before buying the c26 I researched the competitors and the catalina 27 is known to commonly get what they called "the smile" which is a crack where the stress of its fixed keel cracks the hull where the front of the keel meets the hull. We have had zero reports of fixed keel related problems.
I imagine that an impact with a hard object would be best with this keel design. The fiberglass is backed up by the lead block reducing damage and the size of the hole and would serve to reduce the flow of any leak. Also the impact is going to be spread across the hull instead of focused on a handfull of keel bolts.
I am more worried about an impact on the hull in an area not backed up by concrete/lead and would be tempted to reinforce the area from the top of the keel to the bow.
I have come to the conclusion though that my most effective route will be to compartmentalize as much of the boat as possible.
Frank,
As a fellow c-26 "fixed keeler" I agree, I had a j-30 with a seperate lead keel and you really had to be very mindful of those keel bolts and also any cracking at the hul/keel joint since the seperate heavy lead keel , if it hit, would exert tremendous leverage on the light shell hull and either break away ( you turtle) or cause serious structual problems. From what pics I have seen in the internet of groundings with our type ofdesign, you either get a small punch into the glass to the cement with is a easy repair or you get radiating stree crack up the keel into the hull.
Are you thinking that if we take a keel hit that ruptures the glass of the keel that the cement will be sufficient to seal the keel from ingress of water up into the displacment hull? Or at least slow it to a trickle? I have the same very narrow bilge as you and I an redoing a rotted cabin sole this winter, sounds like you may already have been threre done that... any tips.... I love the spacious saloon we have in the fixed keel... have you done anything with your cabin ladder to make bilge access easier?
As a fellow c-26 "fixed keeler" I agree, I had a j-30 with a seperate lead keel and you really had to be very mindful of those keel bolts and also any cracking at the hul/keel joint since the seperate heavy lead keel , if it hit, would exert tremendous leverage on the light shell hull and either break away ( you turtle) or cause serious structual problems. From what pics I have seen in the internet of groundings with our type ofdesign, you either get a small punch into the glass to the cement with is a easy repair or you get radiating stree crack up the keel into the hull.
Are you thinking that if we take a keel hit that ruptures the glass of the keel that the cement will be sufficient to seal the keel from ingress of water up into the displacment hull? Or at least slow it to a trickle? I have the same very narrow bilge as you and I an redoing a rotted cabin sole this winter, sounds like you may already have been threre done that... any tips.... I love the spacious saloon we have in the fixed keel... have you done anything with your cabin ladder to make bilge access easier?
C-26, Fixed Keel # 343
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frankyd
I believe by backing up the impact the concrete/lead would greatly reduce the amount of damage to the fiberglass and very likely reduce how fast the water would pass through the busted fiberglass and into the bilge.
This winter I think I may be rearranging the interior a little. Well see how that pans out. I would love to relocate my battery compartment to the area right above the keel, I need to do some measuring.
I noticed a soft spot behind my bilge access, otherwise the sole is solid. I just ripped out the small amount of soft wood and then built the area back with fiberglass. In imagining ripping out the whole sole I worry about the sole to hull joint, that might be a tricky area to work on.
This winter I think I may be rearranging the interior a little. Well see how that pans out. I would love to relocate my battery compartment to the area right above the keel, I need to do some measuring.
I noticed a soft spot behind my bilge access, otherwise the sole is solid. I just ripped out the small amount of soft wood and then built the area back with fiberglass. In imagining ripping out the whole sole I worry about the sole to hull joint, that might be a tricky area to work on.
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EmergencyExit
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- Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:02 pm
- Location: Mississippi Gulf Coast
Frank,
That is my number one project or the winter.....
When I cime down the ladder, the first step onto the sole is VERY soft ( as if it is only carpet there!), So ..... I need to rip up the old ratty carpet and deal with the sole... I am hoping I only find that there is soft rotted samll peice of wood to replace...what did you find and what did you replace it with ( sounds like you reglassed it from your post ) ...EE has been very helpful and did post real good detail pics on his web site but I think our full keel design is different.
Should we somehow SEAL the top of our cement ballast keel with thick epoxy before glassing the sole in order to prevent any water leaking intothe keel from coming up into the cabin and sinking her?
I also really need to move the battery and also rearrange the interior... my boat kinda lists to port a few degrees... there is a lot of "structure" on the port side and my battery is on the port sde as well!i I know that some have put the batteries behind the ladder where chrysler OEM had a cooler I think, but that s where my current bilge acces is..also worried about hydrochloric battery acid fumes in the cabin.. need some enclosre and proper venting in the design...
That is my number one project or the winter.....
When I cime down the ladder, the first step onto the sole is VERY soft ( as if it is only carpet there!), So ..... I need to rip up the old ratty carpet and deal with the sole... I am hoping I only find that there is soft rotted samll peice of wood to replace...what did you find and what did you replace it with ( sounds like you reglassed it from your post ) ...EE has been very helpful and did post real good detail pics on his web site but I think our full keel design is different.
Should we somehow SEAL the top of our cement ballast keel with thick epoxy before glassing the sole in order to prevent any water leaking intothe keel from coming up into the cabin and sinking her?
I also really need to move the battery and also rearrange the interior... my boat kinda lists to port a few degrees... there is a lot of "structure" on the port side and my battery is on the port sde as well!i I know that some have put the batteries behind the ladder where chrysler OEM had a cooler I think, but that s where my current bilge acces is..also worried about hydrochloric battery acid fumes in the cabin.. need some enclosre and proper venting in the design...
C-26, Fixed Keel # 343
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frankyd
I had a soft spot between the bilge inspection hole and the bulkhead of the rear berth. A very small spot. I pulled out all the soft wood there and rebuilt it with a bit of fiberglass.
I imagine you are trying to decide between fixing the sole the hard way by ripping out the existing sole and reglassing in a new plywood sole or simply beefing up the existing sole with a bunch of additional glass.
Replacing the sole would be the "correct" way, but I know that with my boat I would strip the flooring out to reveal the current wood sole and I would add enough layers of fiberglass cloth to convince myself that it was stronger than new and be done with it. Glass it from port across the sole and to the starboard hull. Do the whole sole now and eventually the old plywood will rot and fall in the bilge.
I believe the wood is rotting because of a lack of airflow in the bilge area. More bilge ventilation might help the wood dry out. I added a 6" deck plate in the middle of my sole and I leave it open when I'm away to help the bilge ventilate. My moisture isnt coming from the keel but from my leaking ports and a leak near my tiller.
Hope that helps,
Frank
I imagine you are trying to decide between fixing the sole the hard way by ripping out the existing sole and reglassing in a new plywood sole or simply beefing up the existing sole with a bunch of additional glass.
Replacing the sole would be the "correct" way, but I know that with my boat I would strip the flooring out to reveal the current wood sole and I would add enough layers of fiberglass cloth to convince myself that it was stronger than new and be done with it. Glass it from port across the sole and to the starboard hull. Do the whole sole now and eventually the old plywood will rot and fall in the bilge.
I believe the wood is rotting because of a lack of airflow in the bilge area. More bilge ventilation might help the wood dry out. I added a 6" deck plate in the middle of my sole and I leave it open when I'm away to help the bilge ventilate. My moisture isnt coming from the keel but from my leaking ports and a leak near my tiller.
Hope that helps,
Frank