Learning as I go, part 2, the deck

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:56 pm

The port stanchion closest to the cockpit had more flex than I liked, the gelcoat had cracks near the lip of the toe rail. The bolts were tight and there is a 1/8" SS backing plate under the stanchion, all should be good right, not. I removed the toe rail, screws every 4", good, screws under the toe rail, even better. I cut into the skin of the deck with my Dremel Multi-Max and removed a rectangular piece of the deck skin. Bad.
The 3/4" plywood stiffener was still in pretty good shape although the two outermost bolt holes barely missed the edge. The worst part is the way Chrysler constructed the deck. All the loads placed on the deck are transmitted through about 1/8" of fiberglass, that's not much. If your deck flexes with a stanchion or you have pulled the screws out of the chain plate attachment below deck, the fiberglass skin is flexing. I've seen photos of stanchions and pulpits pulled out of a deck and this is almost certainly the reason. Good news, it can be fixed.
The other problem is the hull deck joint. Chrysler bonded 1/2"x 2" plywood to the inside edge of the hull to give the screws something to bight into. The bad news is they added a layer of fiberglass mat to the other face of the plywood and bonded it to the hull, they made a gutter, with no way to drain. That gutter is full of wood fibers, not plywood any more.
I've added more photos to http://www.flickr.com/photos/93952888@N ... 885035070/

hp18carr · Post by **hp18carr** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:34 pm

Nice animation of the deck, but I for one will find it hard to sleep tonight thinking something of this magnitude may lay in wait for us beginners. I'm all ears for the good news of how to fix such a nightmare.

Terrence
Wilmington N.C.
Chrysler 26 1980
Pandora (for now)

al the pal · Post by **al the pal** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:04 am

So what is your plan for addressing this issue? Are you going to attempt to cut out the entire deck to replace the plywood beneath the toe rail? Or cut out the fiberglass undercoating in the cabin and replce the wood from the inside (and that would be very difficult in the aft berth area). And any of this would represent a huge undertaking in time and effort... I fear for my boat.

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:46 pm

I think I have solution to the hull joint and deck problem. I discussed the problem and possible solutions with two mechanical engineers that I work with and we all agreed that the following makes the most sense.

You will need to laminate two pieces of white oak to replace the original plywood that was used. Then ad at least 5 layers of 8oz. fiberglass tape between the oak and the bottom of the headliner. Finally you will need to drill holes in the deck and fill any voids between the oak and deck will epoxy. Sounds daunting, and it won't be much fun and I will not be able to sail my boat this year, but the result will be a much better boat for it.

I will write a detailed outline on the entire process I plan to use with photos and drawings.

If you plan to go this route, get the boat covered, completely.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:24 pm

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:17 am

After cutting open the deck, I needed to sit down with a glass of scotch. I considered cutting her up, getting what I could for parts and scrap. Even doing that would take a bit of work and time. But, I have a hull and a deck, the makings of a sailboat, I just need to make it better.

For those folks that sail on smaller inland lakes, the hull-deck joint is less of an issue, unless you feel the deck has been compromised. I'll be sailing on Erie which can get nasty, wave action really stresses a boat.

I have a fix for the stanchion problem which will also strengthen the deck near the stanchions. The fix will use large 1/4" thick aluminum angle, some epoxy and SS bolts. It may cost about $150 for everything ( enough for 6 stanchions and the 2 aft pads on the pulpit ) and take about 8 to 16 hours to complete. You'll need a metal cutting bandsaw or a Sawzall for cutting the aluminum. Give me a couple of days to get some drawings together.

The software I use is Solid Works, it's pretty expensive, several thousand per license. I use it daily at work.

hp18carr · Post by **hp18carr** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:27 am

Your posts have nailed it for me, once my overhaul is complete I'm staying as far away from the big lake as I can. My c26 in its previous life sailed exclusively in the big lake. I'm not naive and I see repairs coming... but hopefully not to the extent of yours. I and this c26 have seen the better part of our years pass us by... a nice inland lake will be just fine form us. Do keep the photos, drawings and detailed outlines coming... it's like I'm seeing an x-ray of just how the old girl was put together. With all the tools and know how that seem to be at your disposal your c26 will in time sail any size lake you care to put it in.

Terrence
Wilmingotn N.C.
Chrysler 26 1980
Pandora (for now)

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:38 am

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:35 pm

dennyzen · Post by **dennyzen** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:56 pm

Ok....while I have my toerail off--anybody care to commen/speculate on if the Chrysler 22 has a similar construction at the hull-deck joint??? MarioG? Did it look anything like this when you took that one apart--I don't recall any thing like it--no wood-- in your pictures.

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:31 pm

I can not comment on the C22, but the problem is on the inside of the boat. I cut away a portion of the starboard side "gutter" and the plywood batten was soaked completely. My boat has been covered for nearly three weeks now, so the water has been in there for quite some time. I also know the plywood deck stiffener has delaminated if a few areas. I feel that it's all repairable, but the plywood deck stiffener needs to dry out before I can begin. I am certain that most of the damage to the deck was cause by poor sealing around the deck fittings but I also suspect water worked its way down the cabin sides, between the two skins from poorly sealed windows. Even if your windows appear to sealed to the cabin, water can still work its way into the phenolic honeycomb over time. The honeycomb is paper and glue, water resistant but not waterproof.

Jmckamey · Post by **Jmckamey** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:44 am

Hello, Looks like you are into a large repair. I'm usually good for getting myself into these things too. I just had to do complete water dammage repairs to our camper due to the same root cause; fast, cheap production not meant to last. It is really a wonder any of these production boats have survived. I can see a place or two on my 20 that would scare me to poke around too much. At any rate, there is a web site on the Catilina 22 where a guy cut up a boat with a sawsall you may find usefull. looks like the same construction technics used on both boats. He also goes into some detail on these kinds of repairs.
Just goggle "Ken Palmers catalina"

Hope this helps. Jeff

hp18carr · Post by **hp18carr** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:01 am

Not to sound like I'm late to the game, but it's starting to sound like to me, that all of us Chrysler owners where it may apply...as a standard test for water saturation need to do more than just drill test holes in the cabin sole.

Terrence
Wilmington N.C.
Chrysler 26 1980
Pandora (for now)

John K · Post by **John K** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:46 am

Interesting thread guys. From what I have observed, the 22 appears to be of a different construction that the 26 as described here. When I drilled into the upper deck to investigate a soft spot that I found, I could not see any coring of any kind. It's possible that I didn't drill deeply enough, but it appeared to be all glass. It seems like I read somewhere (might have been on here) that the upper deck is all glass. It's sturdy as heck, that's for sure, and the really outward curvature of the deck shape should lend to more stability there. The fiberglass layers had delaminated, presumably from the deck being bludgeoned with a heavy object. I injected it with a finishing resin and it is as hard as a rock now. That was a big relief. When I pulled the portlights off, I did in fact, find that the cabin sides are cored with an epoxy soaked honeycomb paper, or cardboard. There was considerable deterioration under the leaky aft port portlight. I simply dug out the soft stuff and re-installed the new windows there. The side decks are cored, and it appears to be plywood. Both of my port lifeline stanchions had been leaking for a quite a while, as neglected by the PO, and there was considerable rot there. I removed the stanchions and let the core dry out under a tarp for a couple of months. Then injected some Smith's clear penetrating epoxy sealer. After I let that cure for a week, injected the finishing resin. I still need to drill the holes back out and bed the stanchions before splashing. From what I have observed, the hull/deck joint on the 22 is not backed with any wood, but I could be wrong. It seems like I would be able to see it when I am in the port cockput locker looking up, and I didn't. I am planning to re-bed the toe rails next winter, perhaps I'll get a better look then. Cheers!

tnc110 · Post by **tnc110** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:54 pm

Solid Works??? Do they still sell seats, I thought everyone was using Pro/e now...JK!!! Great drawings! You are like me...tinkering is just as fun as actually sailing!!!

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Sat May 01, 2010 5:40 pm

I know a seat for SW is a few grand. We also have Pro E, but I was told it was a bear to learn so I just stuck with Auto Cad until someone tried SW, I love it.

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Sun May 02, 2010 4:40 pm

I wore out the one large blade I had for my Dremel Multi-Max, did pretty good for blade rated for wood and drywall. Ordered a diamond coated blade and a tungsten sander, they should hold up much better cutting through glass.
I remove most of the gutter on the starboard side salon area, and as I got closer the forward bulkhead you could actually see something that resembled plywood. I'll still remove the gutter from the entire boat, but the plywood forward may be good enough to leave in place, we'll see.
I moved to aft berth area, I wanted to remove all the carpet. The side floors are rotted near the glass cross member. I have pedestal steering and I wanted to check out the cockpit floor underside. When the steering system was installed, they never bothered to remove the carpet where the pedestal and quadrant bracket bolt up to the cockpit floor. Result, heavy oxidation on the aluminum brackets, but the floor is in good shape.
More photos at http://www.flickr.com/photos/93952888@N ... 885035070/

sauerleigh · Post by **sauerleigh** » Wed May 05, 2010 4:14 pm

Received my Dremel blades, finished cutting away the port side gutter to the transom, all rotted. I moved to the starboard side and cut up to the forward bulkhead, real plywood. I made a couple of test cuts in the gutter, forward in the "V" berth area, the plywood looks good. It appears the real problem with the deck batten starts about 12 to 18 inches aft of the forward bulkhead and runs to the transom, the lowest area of the shear line.
The floor at the cockpit cabin entrance, seemed spongy after I removed the teak strips so I cut away the deck skin and you guessed it.
For those that might have wheel steering, you probably should inspect the hardware and cables. After removing the steering quadrant from the rudder tube I discovered a crack in the cast bronze clamp piece. The crack extends into the casting about 1/3 of the thickness of the material, this can be brazed.
More photos at you know where.