Hull Seal

[mcrandall]

Hi Guys!

So I took the toe rails off this summer and got tons of dirt out from the space between the top and bottom hulls. Also determined water (rain) has been wicking up through that joint, finding water in the bilges, floor, etc after a rain.

Also, I have water in the foam that fills the area under the galley track (cut it open per one of your previuos postings to determine why she listed so hard to starboard--thanks for the info on that one!)

So I've determined I have to seal that joint again. I've removed all the screws from under the toe rail and dug out as much of the silicone as I could. I plan on running polyurethane up in there but with it's "permanentness", I worry about not getting it far enough in to get a really good seal. You don't get two chances with that stuff! The joint is very tight and will take a very narrow bead to push it up in there, especially past the screw holes. Also, I fear prying it open very much for cracking the glass further.

I guess another option would be to cover the joint with glass, then re-install the toe rail over it. Never have to worry about water infiltration then! Hmmm, might be the way to go.

I've seen some of the posts where guys have separated the top from the bottom hull. Is that doable on the 22s? Kinda scary! Not sure where everything attaches other than the toe rail area, so don't know how big of a job that intails.

So there you go! Come one, come all with your advice and/or thoughts. Not planning on doing this till spring, but want to layout my game plan to get it done earliest.

Also, I don't plan on using 5200 under the toe rail. Since it's not visible, I plan on using the polyurethane construction glue you get in tubes from the hardware store. Dries to a tan color, fully waterproof--looks like the same stuff chemically, just not as pretty (and a whole ton less expensive!) Since it's hidden, thinking it'll be a good $ saver. Any thoughts/concerns/experience?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Cheers!

[Alanhod]

[Beady]

Mcrandall:

I also noticed a slight listing and thought it was the galley. I removed the galley the other day (plans for some upgrades over the winter months). I can not seem to find the post about the foam under the track with water.
I never had water in the boat but am curious to check out the foam. Can anyone guide me to this series of post? Where does the water come from?

[Jmckamey]

I seem to remember telling you about an old power boat of mine that had the same problem. At least I think we are talking about the same boat. How wet was it? Mine was as wet as a sponge. I would love to see a pic of the area under work. That is a large area and would make a great storage locker. I don't think one would loose enough positive floation to matter much.
Generaly speaking I don't like taking anything apart any more than nessary to fix a problem. I have always been a believer in the proverb, "If you want to know where the problem is, look for where the mechanic was last."
I once worked with a guy who at one time built boats for a living. I would to pick his brain on construction methods when we were on projects together. From what I know, and have seen, the upper deck and hull is bonded together with adhesive, then some form of mechanical fastener is used at the rub rail area. If the bond is still intact the potental for structural dammage in this area is great if disassembly is attempted. If It were me, I would check on the condition of the bond and if good, just reseal as you reinstall the toe rail. Would be great to be able to let the joint area dry out for a few days prior to reassembly.
As for the 3m 5200, I have purchased the caulk gun size on ebay for $17.00 including shipping. That's not much more than the what you find in the lowes marine/aerospace asile. It has always been recieved within a couple of days of ordering. Paid with paypal and not had any problems. I have a tube standing by to take care on the same area on my boat. I plan to use a plasatic scraper to dig out the sealant at the rub rail, Mask it off and lay in a fresh bead of sealant.

[EmergencyExit]

Was at the local Home Depot Friday night and picked up the caulk gun size for $10.74 !

[mariner]

I seem to remember seeing a really good article on caulk and adhesive for marine use... I'll try to dig it up right after the tree is up!

[Jmckamey]

EE, 3M 5200?

[mariner]

Sealants - its the Aug 2010 issue of practical sailor and for the life of me I cannot find my copy! would anyone be able to share the section on marine sealants? thanks also there is a c22 review in a 2000 issue if anyone has that hanging around ....sure would be nice to add that to the collection!


"Practical Sailor previously reported on caulks and sealants in the November 1998 issue. The tests reported in that article involved only products from 3M, Sikaflex and BoatLife, and the tests were conducted using industry standard procedures called "lap sheer" and "peel" tests. These tests serve primarily to quantify adhesiveness.Compatibility with various materials was part of that report, but aging was not.

The recommendations made in that report were that BoatLife Life Seal was a top all-around performer (but it cannot be painted and has less adhesiveness than some others), 3M 5200 and 5200 Fast Cure were the best adhesives (both above and below the waterline), and Sikaflex 298 bonded best with aluminum."

[EmergencyExit]

EE, 3M 5200?

Yep, looking at it right now. They had the little tube for about $6.50, and 10oz gun size for under $11 so I went with that.

One of the things I've noticed at shopping at different HD's and Lowes is that prices and stock vary from town to town though.

[mcrandall]

All-

Listing: I floated the boat off the trailer shortly after I bought it in order to check for leaks. I immediately noticed the list. I sat on the port side and was not able to even it out--that about 250 pounds worth of offset I'm sportin'. No batteries installed on port and removed the galley, but no way that's enough to make the difference. Very confused.

Found this board and somebody brought the topic up (this past summer.) Said it was brought up in the past but gave a short recap.

Well, drilled a hole up through the hull just to see if anythin drained out. Sure enough, but only for a few seconds. Still confused. Remembered that the blog said the foam really holds on to the water once saturated--sponge-like. I ran a probe down one of the plug holes and found moisture. So, next step was to cut open the bench. I opened a 10 X 20-inch rectangle and started to cut the foam out. Little awkward to get out, so had to remove it in layers. First layer was damp, but light as a feather--very disheartening, thought I'd just made a major cut that was unnecessary. Cut the next layer and lifted out a 5-pound chunk of water saturated foam. Unbelievable how heavy AND how well it retains that water. So next year I'll be excavating that whole area and I guess I'll have some storage! I'll have to get pics in the spring, boat's in storage. Not much to see for now, just opened the glass and found the water. Hated to have it but glad to find the problem.

So this stuff is not doing much in the way of floatation, may be a way to replace it with something more closed cell that won't retain water. GreatStuff?

Glue: We don't have any 3M 5200-type stuff except at the marine stores, and it's pretty expensive. The tan stuff I'm looking at for non-visible areas is construction adhesive. (PL Premium is the brand I have.) It's 100% polyurethane, waterproof and claims to last as long as the surface it joins. My limited testing bears that out. The best part is the price. 10 ounce tube is less than $3.

Getting the glue in the seam: I picked up a bulk grease gun for $20. I'm going to put a brass tube fitting in place of the output hose and crimp the end down to a nice flat slot. Think I can pry the joint open enough to get the homemade nozzle in there far enough if I use a thin prybar with it. If I fill that grase gun with the polyurethane, I'm hoping to be able to force enough up in there to seal past the screw holes. I'll trash the gun when I'm done, but it'll be worth it cuz this is a onetime (in my lifetime anyway) job.

Keep them comments commin'!

Cheers.

[mariner]

If your looking to replace the foam, there is a ton of different products out there.

http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html

This is just one , I'm sure there is a bunch more... But I really like the idea of more storage, a nice hatch and clean and paint the interior... Now you have something !

[Jmckamey]

I vote for storage as well. Can't have enough of that. Would make a couple of smaller hatches rather than one large opening. One would be able to retain more structural intergeraty(sp?).

This brings up a concern, Wonder if there's enough room in that area for expanson for those of us who live in the hard freeze zones. Having that compartment turn into an ice block would be mercyless on the surrounding structure.

[mariner]

here is a link to some cool products I would like to use ....if i wasn't such a chicken.... to cut open the Fg on the Annemarie....


http://www.ssicustomplastics.com/coaming.htm

[mcrandall]

Hmmm. Thanks for the tease, Mariner!

[bryan]

Hello Mark (mcrandall), I have a slight starboard list on my C-22 and may need to take a look under the glass into the bilge as well. Could you (or anyone else) let me know where you did the cutting to get to the foam? I need to know under what areas would be best for cutting the glass. Anyone got pictures of their work with this issue or a diagram showing what areas?

I scoured this site many months ago and did find a previous post or two of the same issue and did I read that someone removed the foam, didn't replace it and had no issues structural or otherwise? Or is the general consensus to replace the foam with something more water resistant?

Also, what do you plan on doing with the hole after you're done? Repair the glass or did I read someone mentioning creating some "storage" areas? Just lookin for some ideas...

Thanks!

Bryan

[lecker68]

The one I remember taking the upper and lower apart was I think Mario G.

[mcrandall]

I opened mine just aft of the bilge on that side. I opened the top of the settee. Since then, I saw the picks of the one where the sides were opened and slide in door covered the holes. I like that look alot!

This stuff is tough to remove! I might open both top and side to get it out, not sure yet. Might glass the top shut, might frame it out and place a drop-in lid. Haven't decided yet.

I just got started on the project before I put it up for storage. Might get it out next week depending on weather, pics to come then.

Cheers!

[skyking]

Hi Mark,

There are many sealants available...But It used one called Geo-seal..Its a Tri_polymer which is widly used in the construction industry.

Its availble in clear as well as colors..I like it because it has alot of holding power but doesnt get rock hard..

This stuff will hold a block of wood to concrete ..

Just want to let you know what I have had good luck with..

http://www.geocelusa.com/php/oic/produc ... oduct_id=7

[back2class]

Liquid nails and somew other construction adheasives are a poor choice. Over some years they dry out to the point they become brittle and shrink. I do not know if this will take 5 years or 20. But when I did remodeling for a living most that we came across over a few years old was a brittle and useless mess.

[mcrandall]

Thanks Tim! I have a couple of dealers near-by. Looks like some good stuff. I'll check it out.

[mcrandall]

Hey back2class-

I agree, liquid nails is NOT the answer for this application! I've compared the marine polymer adhsive (3M 5200) with the adhesive sealant I get at my hardware store. Same stuff, except for the colorant, and it;s a whole lot cheaper!

The stuff Tim offers is colored or clear, and very UV stable.

Cheers!