Today was a perfect Sailing kind of day

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:21 pm

Hi All,

The weather here in Puget sound was a sunny, cloudless, 60 degree day with winds out of the Northwest from 10 to 15 knots. SWEET!

The problem is my Honu was not ready to go sailing yet this season. Today the Honu was not a Sailboat but a Workboat, meaning I got to work on it today. If I get all the work done then it will be ready to sail when a fine day like today comes along in the next month or two here in Puget Sound.

Before I launch I am determined to rework my mast. Today was the removal of the old rusted antenna bracket. Make a new bracket and mount the new LED Anchor light. Looks like a new antenna will be needed. The new bracket has room for a new antenna.
Pre Rebuild

Post Rebuild

The left over space on the plate is for the new antenna, once I find one I like, that is. So who's got a good antenna to recommend please

Thanks
Alan

J. Austin · Post by **J. Austin** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:10 am

I have a Shakespeare, non fiberglass, I think all those are good.

I'm interested in seing other opinions though.

Alan, Honu looks ready to be wet!

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:20 am

YEsterday was the warmest day of the year! I believe it almost hit 60 degrees! YEAH!

Soon Alan,

Scott

J. Austin · Post by **J. Austin** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:23 am

http://www.shakespeare-marine.com/anten ... nna=5241-r

This is the one I have on my mast, not sure if its any good, works well.

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:42 pm

Keep in mind Alan, VHF is a very high frequency signal which translates to line of site. Given the waters we sail in ANY decent name brand antenna will work fine. When you test your antenna remember it is on top of your mast so if you hail a power boat 10' away he may not respond because your signal will go right over him. Given our sailing area getting the very best is really not worth the money. On Destiny I have an antenna on the Radar arch and I can reach anyone in Possession Sound including the Coast Guard. Remember they have antenna's everywhere. I can not reach around Camano Island though so Coupeville and Oak Harbor are out of range. No worries. I also have an antenna on the top of the mast on Destiny much like what you have only 56' in the air. With that I can reach Coupeville AND Oak Harbour however I could NOT reach my dads power boat 50' away. Signal went right over his antenna. I can reach Seattle and anything in Possession Sound as long as you were not to close! LOL!

I'd be more concerned with quality antenna cable and very clean connections to the antenna with as few breaks in the cable as practicle.

Lady Jo has an antenna on the stern rail. It works just fine in Possession Sound as does my little hand held VHF.

:^)

For anyone else, you really need to consider how far you really need to transmitt. If going off shore, the antenna on top of the mast is by far the best answer. Remember that line of site concept. For those sailing in close proximity to other sailors and really never that far from shore then cost savings can be had by not having to buy 50' of high quality lossless coax cable!

Well, just my two bits anyhow . . .
Scott

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:50 pm

Looks good, I'll have to see if they have a longer Coax RG-58 15 foot that comes with it. I can always make the longer cable. I figure we need a6 least 27 feet just for the mast length of cable. Then the additional cable from the mast to inside the cabin to the radio. Love the Name Shakespeare.

Next question would be whats a good radio now days?
I have the hand held waterproof model from Cobra.

Next, next question, where is everyone mounting there radio inside the cabin?

Thanks
Alan

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:15 pm

Scott-

Do I understand correctly? Are you using two antennas with one radio? Do you use an antenna switch, or do you swap out antenna cables on the back of the radio?

Thanks!

Mark

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:22 pm

Great questions, Alan. As Scott mentions, the higher the antenna on a line-of-site sytem, the farther the transmission. That at the cost of creating blindspots close-by. Consider the transmission pattern of the antenna looks like a giant donut with the center on the donut's tiny "hole" being the antenna whip itself. (Different types of antennas create differnt patterns, but generally, this is the patern for the whip antenna.) With that "picture" in mind, you can see how you can end up with dead-spots close-by with vessels whos antennas are mounted much lower.

Also, long antenna cables eat-up power like nobodies business. The shorter the better. Also, typically, the larger, the better. Best to check the loss of a cable to determine efficiency, if you're concerned about which to use. Next is the number of connections (breaks) in the line. Minimizing those is good because even the best connections add loss. Always make sure you have good clean connections to minimize loss. That means connectors connected very solidly to the cable ends AND those connectors untarnished as much as possible. Most of the fixed VHF radios you get will max out at the 25-watt level. You would be amazed at how little that power actually reaches an antenna at the top of a mast! Best to try to minimize that loss.

But, it all works. How's that for a sparkling observation of reality!? It is amazing how well these things work due in large part to how sensitive the radios are.

I found a pretty good guide on Ebay covering this stuff. Check this out:
http://reviews.ebay.com/VHF-DSC-Marine- ... 0000016280

The reason you want to know this info is because each brand of radio will produce product that varies in qualities (and price) depending an what matters to you and your use of the radio.

That's my two cents, eh? I'm really looking forward to hearing where you guys locate your radios and why. I'm thinking just inside the cabin. My portable GPS will probably mount nearby and wire in to the radio for positioning data in case of emergency, don'cha know. Maybe a waterproof external speaker in the cockpit, if I it think necessary.

Good topic, Alan! Been thinking about this stuff for a while. What other thoughts out there?

Cheers!

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:05 pm

Actually no.
In the case of Destiny, I have a radio below and a radio in the cockpit.

I strongly believe you need a radio in reach of the cockpit. Well, At least the mic anyway.

Nothing worse than cruising up to a marina, hailing for a birth, and the dock masters says here I am, I'm waving at you, and where are you? Below on the radio! LOL!

Dual radios, dual antennas provide wonderfull backup. My cockpit radio has the antenna on the radar arch. I'm usually in the cocpit when talking to marinas close to me or other boats close to me. However when listening to the weather or for friends to hail me I'm likely to be below so the on top of the mast is perfect!!!

Scott

PS: Yes Lady Jo has a mounted radio however I also carry a hand held with me on her. Not only that, when I'm on someone elses boat for money, I carry my own radio, gps, flashlight, flares, Coast Pilot, life preserver, and even a safety kit. Yeah, I know, it is a bit overboard but hey, I'd rather carry it and not need it than to . . . . . well, you know. I have a duffle bag for all my stuff!

mcrandall · Post by **mcrandall** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:22 pm

Makes good sense, Scott!

Alan- Here's another bit of info when looking for a radio:

http://www.searoom.com/dsc_info.html

It gets into the topic of DSC with and without Class-D, which greatly affects $!

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:47 am

OK, with the interest in VHF Radios, I thought I'd share my thoughts.

This is in no way an attempt to say what is right and what is wrong. Nor is it an attempt to tell you what is best for you. All I'm doing is expressing my thoughts. Please just consider this post some very random thoughts! LOL!

First things first. I love gadgets. Toys, goodies, electronics, buttons, etc
However, I have a budget and these two concepts always collide. ALWAYS.

So, when I look at a VHF radio, I look at where my boat will be 90% of its life. For me? That is for sure Puget Sound and the surrounding waters. Here VHF is very prevelant. You can expect any salt water boat to have VHF and assume if there is not one the skipper is lacking . . . well, at least a little. USCG monitors VHF 24X7 so having VHF is not only convenient but it is a wonderful safety tool. I've met with other boaters where hailing on VHF was wildly convenient! free communication? Yeah! Things like should we wait for you? where are you, when will you arrive, etc are all critical info for a group outing. A missing boat with no means of communication creates unnecessary stress for organizers. It is actually considered very rude to be late or a no show and not notify folks in a timely fashion. So where I sail, VHF is a requirement.

However . . . .
Last fall I took Lady Jo to Moses Lake. A lake smack dab center of Washington State. Moses Lake is the third largest lake in the state using shorline as a measurement. Discounting Lady Jo, the largest boat we saw power or sail was an 18 foot ski boat. Lady Jo was quite the spectical. Entering town, we stopped for gas in for the truck. We were immediatly approached by folks saying WOW! Look at the size of THAT sailboat! At dinner we had a constant flow of cars slowly going by her because of her SIZE! But I digress . . . The intent here is to say we sailed a rather large body of water and there was only 1 VHF antenna anywhere we could see. Ours. Ya think my VHF would be usefull there? Nope. I'm note even sure if the Grant County Sherrif monitors VHF. There is no Coast Guard in Moses Lake. I heard ZERO chatter on the VHF. So, I would consider VHF cool but really a waste of money in that situation if that was where I did most of my sailing.

So consider if you really could even USE your VHF.

Next? Features!
I want them ALLLLLLLL! Oh, wait, I have a wife and a budget. I'd like to keep both.

So, for me . . . . .
DSC. Do I need it? Not likely because I'm not sure I would integrate it into my on board GPS system. One day when I have to replace all my electronics on Destiny, SURE. Now? Nah. Lady Jo? Nope, don't need it. I know how to flip to Channel 16 and scream help! LOL! Well, preferably MAYDAY . . . MAYDAY . . . MAYDAY . . . . in a true life threatening situation. So at this time, I'm not fretting over DSC. If I have a hand held GPS, I can provide a lat and long myself.

Next feature. Since you are by law required to monitor channel 16 IF your radio is on then I LOVE a scan capability. The ability to pick three or four channels to scan is FABULOUS! Why? Well, 16 is required however the Coast Guard regularly announces notices to mariners on channel 22A. So . . . . Scanning 16 and 22A is sweet! Scanning the weather frequencies is not necessary for me. Why? USCG announces notice to mariners that INCLUDE weather changes! so 22A covers two birds with one stone. Lastly, when I meet up with another boat or boat group we generally agree on monitoring a specific channel say . . 68 for specific calls. So you can see my desire to scan at least 3 channels. Sometimes I listen to Seattle Traffic for ship movement. That makes 4 channels to monitor. So maybe your not geeky like me and you just turn your VHF off. No worries. Scanning may not be for you.

Next, I like weather channels. 8 if possible. I sail US and Canadian waters all the time so I listen to both.

Next extremely unnecessary feature . . . . controls on the mic. I love 'em. I'm lazy. Nuff said?

Hailer. Nope, I can yell at my crew well enough without a loud speaker for the entire sound to hear!

Next, how do I buy a radio? I find one with the features I like. Then I look at the prices. I take into consideration possible up coming sales. If features and price work, I look at the brand. If it is a major player in the VHF market I google the model for any obvious flaws in the radio design. If google shows 90% or better ( rough guess ) happy owners I buy. Keep in mind no matter what you buy someone out there is unhappy with the same item. So majority rules but I like a LARGE majority.

Lastly Sensativity and selectabilty in the radio: Sheesh, I'm a huge geek in this arena and I never even consider this. Why? In Puget Sound and the Straights of Georgia there is US and Canadian Coast Guard monitoring stations everywhere! Any decent well known, well sold VHF radio will work just fine if you have a proper and clean antenna! Remeber VHF is SHORT RANGE communication. IF distance is a concern go to SSB.

OK, it is that simple for me.

I hope it helps you in your shopping!

Scott

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:31 pm

I agree on the scan as in the river which is rather narrow here I also scan 13 for tugs and ships I have a mounted vhf under the companionway steps and a hand held both have a 16/9 button. most times I use the hand held as the whole radio is in my hand and range is pretty good here.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:09 pm

Wow, excellent topic, found quite by accident. Love it!

Okay, Captain Scott and I must have been typing at the same time I posted my last response on this thread.

Based on what I'm reading and how desperately I conserve electrical power on my boat with all my LED's, Solar panel and such. I am not going to do the antenna at the top of the mast. I am always in line of sight of those I'm talking too and I never ever get out of sight of the shore.

No I will reserve my limited new crows nest space for something cooler then a VHF Antenna. It's only a few square inches but it's prime real estate for mounting something. As for the radio I'll stick with the back up hand held stowed in the cabin and the water proof and held in my PFD vest pocket tuned to channel 16 or scanning.

Now what to put up the mast?

GPS antenna?

Transponder? No, never out of sight of shore.

Color and Night Vision water proof home security type camera, low voltage, with a small monitor on a swing arm mounted so it can be pivoted out in the hatchway to be viewed from the cockpit. Yea, that will be WAY of in the future, if ever, but cool. And so much for the K.I.S.S principle. Just talked myself right out of that one, dang.

Oh, Flag staff with a block at the top to run the colors up and down on? No I have one on the starboard side going up to the spreader.

(I still need that photo of my new C-22 burgee flying right under my USA flag.)

Idea's here folks, it's a good 6 inches of prime real estate, top of the mast. What goes there

Thanks for all the VHF antenna knowledge, you saved me some money and work for what would have been questionable results for my conditions and needs. I love this forum!

Thanks
Alan

lecker68 · Post by **lecker68** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:25 pm

I am debating on putting my new to me tri-color and anchor light on I will probably wait but it was free so it is mine. I kinda like the way my mast head light illuminates my windex for night sailing.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:10 pm

Hey Lecker68,

I would not substatue the running lights from the deck level to the mast. Especially if sailing a river or narrow patch of water. The power boaters will not be looking up. Sure you will be legal with your tri colors on the top of you mast but everyone at deck level close by will not see them way up there. I got myself in trouble once only looking up 20 or so feet in the dark. I just about sailed into a 3 story barge with one small red light and one small green light a block apart and 3 stories high. I was about 100 yards away when I figured it out and made a hard 90 degree turn to get out of the way. A speed boat behind me did not make it out till I had cleared the barge and then the tug behind the barge shown a spotlight no me, then the power boater saw the barge and pulled a 90 degree turn the other way and missed the barge by less then 25 feet. That guy would have plowed into that big steel barge at, at least 25 miles per hour if not more. I don't want this guys cousin, plowing into you some night because he did not look up.

But if your keeping your deck lights too, never mind!

No I'm just going with the 360 Degree Clear white LED visible to over 2 miles, USGC approved up atop my mast. Oh and the steamer light about 3 feet below the new anchor light.

After thinking it over I'm going to take off the way cool aluminum bracket I made for the Light and the antenna. Since I'm not going to need the antenna I can mount the light right on top of my weather vain mount and still be clear of the weather vain and the light can still be seen 360 degrees from the anchor light, not interfering with by the weather vain. I was making it too complex again, simple is better.

Thanks
Alan