Mondays 11/16/2009 Question and boating safety Tip ANSWERD

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:26 am

Sorry I missed last week folks!!

PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS AND THE ANSWER!! IT IS VERY INTERESTING!

Saftey Tip:
Who lashes their rudder when they drop anchor for the night? Who lashes their rudder when tied at the dock?? I DO!!!

Did you know that your rudder post can get bent by big waves?? Well, not exactly the wave itself but the hobby horsing of your boat! Imagine your rudder sitting straight, for and aft. Now picture large waves from that idiot that does not observe the no wake rules. Your boat can rock bow up and stern down several times very dramatically. If your tiller or wheel is tied down so your rudder is for and aft the rudder will knife through the water most likely without damage! Now picture your tiller tied off to the side. Your rudder is turned and now must scoop water each time the stern comes down creating great pressures on the post! You can actually bend your post like this! Yup! Now the saftey point. If your tiller is not lashed it may swing wildly port and starboard possibly injuring someone!!!!! I always center and lock my rudder evertime we stop. Either at anchor or at the dock.

Question for today
Over taking vessels is the subject. Since I missed last week, I'll make this a two part question.
You are a sailboat under full sail, starboard tack,to starboard of the other vessel, and no motor running ( hint hint ) You are overtaking a powerboat that is not fishing just simply putting along very slowly ( hint hint ). You can clearly see his stern light indicating your angle from the stern is less than 22 degrees to the side. It is not night, dusk, and visibility is not impaired. Who has the right of way??

Next part . . . . . . You have passed with the vessel on your port side thus you are to his starboard. The shifts a bit and you must tack to port to maintain headway. After the tack it is clear you will be crossing the other vessels ( bubbu and his buddies ) path. You are clearly to starboard, you are under full sail without motor, and there is risk of collision. Who has the right of way at this point??

Ponder and . . . . .
Enjoy!

Scott

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:05 pm

Part one.
Since I am under sail with no motor and the other boat is running under motor power, I believe I have the right of way. However I am torn, as I am overtaking the motoring motor boat on a starboard tack and the other boat is on my starboard side, I believe this makes me the one in control making the other boat the stand on boat. It also seems to me that I should be sounding a horn signal at this point indicating I will be passing on the starboard. Though I, in practice would alter my coarse to pass him on my port side, his starboard side so I would cross his stern and not his bow.

Part two.
I believe I have the right away in this instance. Again I am the faster vessel at this point based on the information from the first question so I am pulling away. It seems to me that I must again signal a horn in some way to indicate my intention of changing coarse and crossing his bow.

Again always be safe and back off so no collision happens, no mater who is the stand on vessel.

Thanks
Alan

Capt. Bondo · Post by **Capt. Bondo** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:01 am

A sailboat under sail should always have right of way over bubba and his buddies, however chances are bubba has never read the right of way rules in his boat registration book. In my Sunfish days I would aim right at bubba because he always knew how to throttle up to avoid getting hit

Windward · Post by **Windward** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:29 pm

I'm going to take the contrarian position here.

If I'm overtaking, I'm the burdened, keep-clear vessel and the boat I'm overtaking is the stand-on. Doesn't matter what craft I'm in, even if I'm in a sleek, svelte sailboat passing Bubba Bassman and buddies belching big bubbles of Budweiser.

Once I'm past, I still need to keep clear for a reasonable time. I don't have a precise value for what's "reasonable", but for sure if I have to tack within a few minutes of overtaking I still need to keep clear of the boat I passed.

Mario G · Post by **Mario G** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:52 pm

I'm not going to answer this since I was reading this very subject today.

Let me start from the beginning I went to pick up a customers beetle today and of coarse I got talking about sailing and she ask me if I would like a few sailing books. Well with a grin on my face I said sure. Well I'm sure you can imagine how big the grin got when she brought me this

Oh and there was a s-extant on top

one of the 1st thing I started reading just happen to be about maneuvering around other boats so i'll keep my answer to myself.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:56 pm

[quote="Windward"] Bubba Bassman and buddies belching big bubbles of Budweiser. [quote]
Boo-ya, Billy Bo Bob! I mean Jeff. That caused me to do the classic soda pop fountain out the nose, you know.

Thanks
Alan

Windward · Post by **Windward** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:10 am

Sorry for that! The doc usually recommends saline solution, not soda.

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:40 am

LOL! I Like that BUbba belching Bud!!!

However, I believe we have a bubba among us now! Well, by name anyway!

Scott

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:07 am

ANSWER

This question like a few in the past was meant to misslead you and to show you that sailboats under sail DO NOT always have the right of way over bubba and the power boat. I very intentionally pointed out all the arguments a sailor would use to say I HAVE THE RIGHT . . . . . when most of us do not realize we do NOT always have the right. Always remember . . . Maritime Law assumes your are at least 50% guilty of any accident and you must prove yourself innocent!! Anytime an accident is eminent you are required to take evasive action. If you don't they will likely tag you for not having a proper watch on deck!!!

Since in the past there has been contention in the answers I figured I'd post the actual rules and where they were pulled from on this one. I usually don't provide arguments or rules once the answer is given in hopes you will look it up for yourself.

ANSWER:
1) Bubba has the right of way.
2) Bubba has the right of way.

Hah! I bet your reading further now! LOL!

Get out your CFR's and turn to the Navigation section.
Check rule 13 pertaining to "Overtaking" Sections. You find it in part B sections 4-18.

Question one reasons:Now here is where most people fail to read the extra mile. All they see is SAILBOATS have the right of way. The rules clearly state the following:
Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

Read that carefully! Especially the very first statement!!! Now look at the two words after the comma!! ANY VESSEL last I checked the rules, our sailboats belong in that category!!!

Question two reasons:Same book, chapter, section, paragraphs and page:

Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

Check it out!!!! It clearly states the overtaking vessel, now proven to be the burdened vessel as Jeff elequently stated, can not be relieved of her duties until fully clear of the stand on vessel or BUBBA!!!

Yep! You overtake a power boat in your beautiful sloop and you must give way. You can not pass the power boat and then tack in front of them regardless of wind until you are completely clear!!!!! If you force him to manuver you are in the wrong!!!!

Hopefully my initial description totally mislead you. It is an accurate representation of what happens regularly where I sail. The attitudes of the sailers are that they have the right and they KNOW IT!

Alan, you probably pictured sailing down the river to the sound and fell right into my trap. Heh heh!! Sorry!!

I now return you to your regularly scheduled forum!

Captain Scott

tgentry · Post by **tgentry** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:16 am

Scott,
You didn't mention how long after you pass, or how far ahead you are when you have to tack. I think some judgement is called for, as Jeff stated. After the overtaking maneuver is complete (whenever that is) you are no longer the overtaking vessel. At that point the sailboat becomes the stand on vessel.

To clarify, the sailboat is the overtaking vessel only as long as it is overtaking. Obviously he's not still the overtaking vessel 8 hours later, so at some point that role changes.

Personally after overtaking I would try to stay clear for a good long while because in addition to following the nav rules I try to be courteous and respectful (at least while on the water

).

EmergencyExit · Post by **EmergencyExit** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:39 pm

Speaking of lashing the tiller, I do on EE. If you remember, she faces south on that open lake dockage, and gets waves and winds from the southeast during storms.....Found that lashing it to the starboard rails helps her turn into those nasty 45-degree-off-the-port-bow waves and winds as opposed to the bow being pushed away from them. Has made a lot less stress on the port bow lines...

CaptainScott · Post by **CaptainScott** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:27 pm

tgentry wrote:Scott,
You didn't mention how long after you pass, or how far ahead you are when you have to tack. I think some judgement is called for, as Jeff stated. After the overtaking maneuver is complete (whenever that is) you are no longer the overtaking vessel. At that point the sailboat becomes the stand on vessel.

To clarify, the sailboat is the overtaking vessel only as long as it is overtaking. Obviously he's not still the overtaking vessel 8 hours later, so at some point that role changes.

Personally after overtaking I would try to stay clear for a good long while because in addition to following the nav rules I try to be courteous and respectful (at least while on the water ).

I agree with your statements. There is no condition in the story or in the law that defines you are far enough ahead or enough clock ticks have passed to be relieved of the duty to give way. It does state you must be clear though!

The fun for me is simply reminding myself that I do not have carte blanc right of way over power boats!! There are MANY cases clearly defined where sailboat by virtue of being a sailboat DOES NOT have right of way.

The best statement is indeed stay clear and be courtious!!

I hope you enjoy the fun!

Scott

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:10 pm

Paul the Denverite · Post by **Paul the Denverite** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:11 pm

One of only two times I heard 5 blasts on a ship's whistle had to do with our topic. A gentleman and wife were out on their 20something foot sloop sailing southeast across the narrows of San Diego harbor. About mid channel they came about for their next tack, but got caught in chains. They had assumed privlidged vessel status by virtue of being a sailboat. Problem was that we were a 384' bright red Coast Guard icebreaker.

About the third blast the gentleman appeared out from under the boom and scanning from sea level up to our 04 level immediately saw the danger. Fortunately, his kicker caught on about the fifth pull and he quickly motored out of our way. His wife, by the way, was a bit pale.

Problem was that he never saw us. With his main and genoa unfurled he assumed everyone would give way to him. The law of gross tonnage, however, trumped him. He was fortunate. We were close enough it could have ended very differently.

Alanhod · Post by **Alanhod** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:27 pm